Pick Pockets and PVP stealing

"Your rules are bad and you should feel bad!"
Plot
Posts: 737
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:40 am

Pick Pockets and PVP stealing

Post by Plot » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:14 pm

Should we add the skill Pick Pockets to the game?

Wherein something akin to a colored clothespin (which is out of game) is used to simulate pocket picking.

How else might we improve the game mechanics regarding theft?

Should we remove it entirely?

This topic closes on Tuesday February 16th at 2300 of 2016 or 72 hours after its last comment, whichever happens first.

User avatar
Jay Belarpin
Posts: 512
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:45 pm

Re: Pick Pockets

Post by Jay Belarpin » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:20 pm

I would be much happier with this than the current methodologies for IG stealing.

Of course, given the choice, I would remove pvp stealing from the game entirely.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

User avatar
HK-75
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:46 am

Pick Pockets and PVP stealing

Post by HK-75 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:46 pm

I think pickpocketing if done right, could be very cool. At this point, having pvp stealing seems pointless as most people are too afraid of pvp. I personally would like to keep pvp stealing but it seems like it would ruin others fun.
Statement

User avatar
Jay Belarpin
Posts: 512
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:45 pm

Re: Pick Pockets and PVP stealing

Post by Jay Belarpin » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:51 pm

Archon wrote:I think pickpocketing if done right, could be very cool. At this point, having pvp stealing seems pointless as most people are too afraid of pvp. I personally would like to keep pvp stealing but it seems like it would ruin others fun.
Honestly, every time I've seen PVP stealing its come with a lot of negativity. Cases of cheating with the item being locked in an OOG location, "Oh, they didn't steal THAT physrep" or stealing IG happening OOG. Cases where people have responded very negatively and poorly. It really feels like the rules for stealing from other players are just not developed enough.

Its also possible that stealing IG by its very nature makes people uncomfortable on an OOG level. I know from experience being stolen from is very very violating. I've been fortunate enough to have not been stolen from IG but even when other people are its still invokes a negative response in me. Maybe I'm not the only one.

On the other hand, Neight has successfully used it as a plot hook on more than one occasion. Since it was possible for PCs to hunt down and recover their stuff it worked out well. But that is a difference between PVE and PVP stealing. In PVE the game will give players the chance to get their stuff back, in PVP there is a real incentive for the thief to not get caught.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

User avatar
jazzman831
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: Pick Pockets and PVP stealing

Post by jazzman831 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:08 pm

IF we have PVP stealing it should be as non-abstract as possible. I'll be upset if someone manages to run off with one of my guns, but that's my fault for letting someone get so close. I'll be VERY upset if someone manages to run off with ALL my guns, or my armor that I'm currently wearing, or the insert-thing-here-that-in-real-life-I-would-definitely-notice-someone-taking-from-me-but-could-be-gained-by-an-abstract-or-random-system-here. The abstract nature of the item system (which I really like, btw) also makes it easier for someone to get away with stealing, as in many cases the victim doesn't see the actual item in question, only a generic physrep or item card.

As Jay said, there are too many ways for PVP pick pocketing to go wrong, and not that many upsides. I do like the idea of PVE pickpocketing, albeit with the same caveats as above... NPCing shouldn't be license to cheat, or the players are left feeling, well, cheated.
-Jebediah the Proud

User avatar
Ander
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: Pick Pockets and PVP stealing

Post by Ander » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:35 pm

I'll add my voice to the No PVP stealing chorus. I don't mind PVE per se but there are potential loopholes there. Could a PC hire an NPC to steal from another PC? I honestly don't know how best to handle this. I do think if we are going to add a Pickpocketing skill we should add an Anti-pickpocketing skill to balance it. Call it "Watchful".... or "Velcro Pockets".

User avatar
Swordguy
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Pick Pockets and PVP stealing

Post by Swordguy » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:20 pm

I'm going to come down in the middle here. Outright PICKPOCKETING - stealing something off of a living, mobile and active player - needs to not be a thing. Not doing it for real, and not doing it with abstract mechanics. It always sucks. Let me repeat that: ABSTRACT MECHANICS FOR PICKPOCKETING SUCK.

With that said, STEALING unattended things needs to be possible. Not to put too fine a point on things, but if you're dumb enough to leave a stack of 5000 Allins sitting on a table in the middle of the tavern, and walk off to the bathroom for 20 minutes, there's NO reason whatsoever why you deserve to have them sitting there when you get back.

The things that need to happen when doing PVP stealing are as follows:

1) You need to have a marshal there. They don't have to be standing next to you, and yes, it sucks to have somebody walk off to pee and leave that stack of allins, and then it takes you the entire time they're in the bathroom to actually track down a marshal so you can steal something (or have the "oh, they're walking toward my cabin with a marshal next to them; I bet he's gonna steal something from me!" problem). But having a 3rd party there is ESSENTIAL, because of Point 2.

2) If your shit is OOG, then it needs to be in a clearly deliniated OOG area. "Under my bunk" is the standard for most larps, and having a bin or box with a large "OOG" marked in tape is also helpful. The marshal's presence limits the tendency of assholes to grab something from the OOG bin and claim "naw, it was totally IG".

3) If you're going OOG and are dropping your stuff somewhere, the onus needs to be on you to put your own stuff somewhere OOG. The single most negative experience I've had in Wastelands was from a player who went OOG to cook (good for him), and who left his entire stack of stuff sitting out on a table in the tavern (not so good). When people came back into the tavern, they had no idea whose stuff it was, just that it was a pile of free stuff, so they stole the shit out of it (and caused the cooking player to have something of an OOG meltown). Put your crap OOG, and this never, ever happens. Yes, this is blaming the victim. Yes, the victim deserves the blame. Actions have consequences.

4) This is a game inspired by Mad Max, Fallout, and Shadowrun. Is anyone seriously going to claim that being able to steal crap occasionally isn't true to the source material?
Mission, Method, Morals...all negotiable.

User avatar
jazzman831
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: Pick Pockets and PVP stealing

Post by jazzman831 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:51 am

I've been going back and forth on this but I've finally decided I agree with Rob EXCEPT -- any form of stealing has to follow the "don't be a jerk" rule:
  • If someone goes OOG to cook YOU dinner and you steal their stuff -- you are a jerk
  • If someone donates some of their paid game time to take an NPC shift and you steal their stuff -- you are a jerk
  • If a new player doesn't put their stuff in a dedicated OOG area when they go to the bathroom and you steal their stuff -- you are a jerk
  • If someone has placed stuff in their personal area but not in a dedicated OOG location and you steal it -- you are a jerk
  • If someone accidentally drops item card(s) and you steal them -- you are a jerk*
  • If a veteran player doesn't put their stuff in a dedicated OOG area and you steal it -- they were dumb
  • If a player says "hey, watch my stuff" and you steal a handful of allins -- they were dumb
  • If someone has a costume flaw that makes them lose/drop item cards and they refuse to fix it -- they were dumb
There also needs to be some way to find out who stole your stuff. As I said before, many items will be unique, but all item cards look the same. If someone can only steal your stuff because of the abstraction, that's borderline cheating.

And I should note: all of these issues can be resolved with the "their must be a marshal present while stealing" rule.

At the end of the day, even though we are playing in the post apocalypse, if the game turns completely PVP it just won't be fun anymore. A band of adventurers who put aside their selfish ways and trust each other to overcome a common foe is the most common roleplaying trope ever, and for good reason.

* I'm thinking specifically of the instance in the last game where I had to do a cartwheel for IG purposes. In doing so my item card holder fell out of my pocket without me realizing it. Now, in real life I would have noticed if 100 lbs of equipment was left on the ground, but because we have an abstract system I didn't notice for a few hours. Now, if someone is just being careless and drops stuff all the time, that's another story
-Jebediah the Proud

User avatar
Ander
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: Pick Pockets and PVP stealing

Post by Ander » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:18 am

I agree with all of the words you just worded.

User avatar
HK-75
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:46 am

Re: Pick Pockets and PVP stealing

Post by HK-75 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:28 am

I second all of the everything's Bryan said.
Statement

Locked