Karma

"Your rules are bad and you should feel bad!"
Plot
Posts: 737
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:40 am

Karma

Post by Plot » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:38 am

1) Should players be able to purchase Karma...

With Money?
Example: $10 per Karma

With Rads?
Example: 10 Rads per Karma

With Both?
Using either of the previous examples or, spending 5 rads and $5

1a) If yes, what do you believe would be reasonable?

1b) If yes, should it be retroactively allowed?
Example, Bob the PC has 6 games under their belt, therefore they can use the limit 6 times.




This topic will be closed on Friday February 12th at 2300 or 72 hours after the last comment is posted, whichever is first.

User avatar
Ander
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: Karma

Post by Ander » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:59 am

Plot wrote:1) Should players be able to purchase Karma...

With Money?
Example: $10 per Karma
Nope. Nope nope nope. Voice radius nope. Pay-to-win mechanisms have always bothered me in video games and there is no place for them in a LARP. This is a can of worms we do not want to open.
Plot wrote: With Rads?
Example: 10 Rads per Karma
I have no problem with this, as long as there are limits placed on it. Unlike the money option, this is an in-game "currency" everyone gets the same base amount of per game, and in deciding to spend it to "boost" their karma they are choosing that over other things they may potentially spend them on or unlock. The equivalent in D&D of choosing extra skill points instead of a feat.
Plot wrote:1a) If yes, what do you believe would be reasonable?
I don't have a good answer for this one. I think it should definitely be limited either relative to how many games the character has attended or based on their current Karma levels (which are of course directly linked). Specifically what that limit should be, however, I do not know. Would allowing up to your current Karma level in "Rad Karma" be too unbalancing?
Plot wrote:1b) If yes, should it be retroactively allowed?
Example, Bob the PC has 6 games under their belt, therefore they can use the limit 6 times.
I don't think there is any problem with it being retroactive, within limits. For example, if you can buy 1 game worth of karma with rads for every game you have attended, perhaps it should be limited to 2 games worth purchased at a time. Just to avoid absurd jumps in-character power levels between games. You would still be able to make it up to your maximum if you chose, but not all at once.

I don't know how many people we would have utilizing this to fully double their karma (in the above examples). It would probably be mostly something for experienced players working on their second character as they would already have a stock of rads built up. But it would also be useful even for new characters just for those times when you are one karma shy of that cool new skill.

User avatar
jazzman831
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: Karma

Post by jazzman831 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:10 am

Money: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. I don't want Wastelands to become one of those Facebook games where people with more disposable income blow you away simply because they threw cash at the game.

Rads: Initially I liked this, but the more I think about it... it doesn't eliminate the problem from above, because you can donate things (which cost money) to get rads, so it still allows for buying karma with money-ish. If you could somehow limit it to earned karma (though playing, NPCing, cooking, cleaning, etc... things you have to DO vs things you have to BUY) then heck yeah, I'd be all for it. But that also requires a butt-ton more record-keeping, some of which can't be done retroactively. Maybe as a compromise you just set a low limit, something like, you can only spend X rads per game this way, or you can't spend more rads than you have karma at any given time, or you can spend up to half your max rads, something like that.

1a): Hrm. 10 rads / karma seems reasonable. If you spend all your game-earned rads on karma that's a 10% boost, which makes up for losing the abilities those rads access. But I'm not hard-set on this number.

1b): Sure, but as Ander says, I wouldn't let them use their limit all at once. I don't know how many games people have under their belts to come up with a good limit.
-Jebediah the Proud

User avatar
Swordguy
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Karma

Post by Swordguy » Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:37 am

Just to be contrary, I'm going to take a different tack on the money/karma issue.

I'm 100% fine with money->karma UP TO 100 KARMA ON YOUR CHARACTER. That is, once your PC has hit 100 karma, you can't buy any more. 100 Karma seems to be the "break point" where a LOT of the character concepts I've poked around at really come into their own. If a person wants to spend $60 up-front to bypass the 8.5 game-days it will take to get from 40-100 karma (@ 7/game day), then I have no issue with that. This becomes ESPECIALLY attractive for veteran players who want to start secondary PCs, and to be totally honest, it's better to have money available in your LARP's war chest, rather than be strictly limited to donations.

Beyond 100 karma, though, everything else everyone has said applies. Becoming a pay-to-win system is an absolute cancer on a game.


RADS: I'm not sure on this one. Yes, it's got the "well, you're really just paying for karma anyway" issue...but that's ALSO true of tying Karma gain to attendance. Can't afford to go? Then you don't get Karma (yes, I'm aware of NPCing rewards, but people don't do it anyway if they can't afford to go). Moreover, it's actually a meaningful choice in Wastelands. Something like NERO? All you could spend your goblin points on was mundane, non-magical gear (which was easily available anyway), or buying "karma" in their system. Here, though, there's actually a fair bit of meaningful stuff to spend your Rads on, and so Rads -> Karma isn't a total nob-brainer of a choice.

HOWEVER, Rads -> Karma interacts poorly with the idea of "secret Rad rewards". People are far more likely to blow all their Rads on a KNOWN quantity (ie, I get karma) than save them for an UNKNOWN quantity (ie, I might unlock something cool and appropriate for my PC at 200 rads...or I might not).

I would encourage perhaps a hybrid, where you cannot spend Rads on a character's Karma past 100 or 200 Karma (not sure which), in the same manner as the "money" issue above. That gives people the *option*, and gets them out of the "low-level blues" very quickly.

Do note I'm also TOTALLY OK with none of these being implemented, and the standard system 9 of X karma/game day being the only one available (aside from the random rewards of our capricious plot overlords, of course).
Mission, Method, Morals...all negotiable.

User avatar
HK-75
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:46 am

Re: Karma

Post by HK-75 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:49 am

I would have to agree with Rob's statements. If your going to do a karma buying type style, you should limit it to no longer be able to buy karma or trade in rads for a specific character that is 100 or more. It allows new players to jump into action much quicker, and hey its more money for the game.
Statement

User avatar
Jay Belarpin
Posts: 512
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:45 pm

Karma

Post by Jay Belarpin » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:53 am

I'll be sounding off fully later today but I wanted to say this was actually going to be the April Fools joke I posted this year.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

User avatar
Ander
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: Karma

Post by Ander » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:49 am

jazzman831 wrote:Rads: Initially I liked this, but the more I think about it... it doesn't eliminate the problem from above, because you can donate things (which cost money) to get rads, so it still allows for buying karma with money-ish.
I considered mentioning this. The reason I think this is less of a problem is that it is limited to things the game actually needs, when it needs it. This differentiates it from a pure "Throw Money: Get Karma" system. Yes, it could be used like that, but only up to the point allowed by the needs of the game. From my personal perspective that edges it back into the realm of acceptability.

Plot
Posts: 737
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:40 am

re 100

Post by Plot » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:55 am

100 as a fixed number or 100 as an earned number?

As in, when there's 100 on the sheet, or when the PC has earned 100 Karma?

User avatar
HK-75
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:46 am

Re: Karma

Post by HK-75 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:29 am

I was taking it as when the PC's character has 100 or more karma on the sheet. Which would keep the would be pay to win character aspect to a minimum.
Statement

User avatar
Shadow
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:51 pm

Re: Karma

Post by Shadow » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:50 pm

Swordguy brings up a good point that paying real money would be beneficial for veteran players and it could also bring in a little more revenue for the game so we can buy new supplies, ect. However, I agree with Ander, I don't want this to become a pay to win type of game like a lot of online games.
Maybe there could be a compromise that veteran players who decide to make new characters and can pay with real monies? And until you become a veteran player(whatever amount of xp you think qualifies as a veteran) you can buy with in game currency.
And if you think about it, if you have brand new people who are joining who have never larped or even played D&D then allowing them to buy a lot karma with real money right off the bat could actually hurt them. I have never played D&D and this is my first larp and I can say with what skills I purchased with what little karma I had overwhelms me. I can't imagine having 100 karma right off the bat or more because I paid for it and trying to figure out how all the mechanics work.

Either way, real money or in game currency doesn't bother me too much as long as this doesn't become a pay to win type of game.

Locked