Crafting System

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wormyxl
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Re: Crafting System

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:58 am

AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:
wormyxl wrote: D) Crafting may not occure at the event

But then what's the point of crafting?!?! We craft at the event to signify the crafting between games. At the start of the game, you get your new recipes based on the Karma you spent prior to game. Once you get those recipes, then you can craft. So, not allowing crafting nullifies crafting in general.

Therefore, I say, "No."
Sorry, poor wording on my part. I fixed it in the original post to be "Crafting may not occur DURING the event". The intent here is that you can no longer use mid day crafting during the event.

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Crafting System

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:37 am

wormyxl wrote:
The concept of "Effort determines maximum amount you can make between events" is lost on me. The only things that go into making something are Time, Components, Expertise, and Tools. Your level represents your expertise in how well you can use what is available to you (components and tools). The only other thing is time... and effort representing time seems strange to me because there can be a variable amount of time between events, but for some reason the amount I can make never changes. If you want to argue story or realism then this doesn't make much sense to me. Mind you, I am not advocating for a system that directly relates your exact time between games.
Interesting. I would have to think on that a bit more, but it does make sense that there are additional factors at play. (Thank you for appeasing my storyline-obsessed self) :)

The effort relates to the buys of the level or "expertise." Though, it makes sense that the effort should be associated more to time than expertise level. Hmmm....I will reassess after thinking for a bit. Valid point, though.
wormyxl wrote: This idea assumes that mid game crafting is still wanted, and presents a fix to put less work on the GM for mid game crafting. Option A is less work than what the current system has. In the current system the GM is required to print out a bunch of tags and hope to have the correct ones when he comes in. The players stand in line to hand the GM their saturday afternoon crafting. The GM then takes time to search through what he has to find what the players are making, hands them tags for what he has, and then has to go back to print out more if he didn't have enough. In the midgame crafting option A, all the printing is done at once and only what is needed is printed (instead of having extra leftover).
Just to clarify, the way N8 has it set up, he has all item tags organized in a system that allows him to find the card you require and give it to you in less than 10 seconds (normally). I'm not sure how it was run when you played awhile ago, but I'll run through it, just so you get a feel of it now (and cause I'm one of the major crafters). :P

I receive my new recipes from N8 and amount of crafting efforts. I then take the time (while N8 checks in other players) to figure out my crafting items (I write out the item, the effort, and the components). I then hand this information (normally on a separate piece of paper) as well as my current component cards that add up to what I need. N8 double checks my numbers based on his version of my recipes and subtracts the required components on my item cards (or takes the used up component cards; i.e. salvage, structural component, etc.). He then grabs the item cards I need (or bullets) and hands them to me. The whole process takes probably 10-15 minutes. Seeing as check-in tends to stretch for a few hours to allow everyone to arrive and settle in, this gets things flowing pretty smoothly.

Thankfully, N8 has a HUGE assortment and quantity of tags, so he doesn't tend to print many more at the game. And he reuses cards as well, so this helps.

I guess it's never been an issue with mid-game crafting (i.e. Saturday afternoon) because most people get the crafting done at the start of the game. I think it's a combination of the incentive to craft early as well as the incentive to play longer by not adding mid-game crafting.

Not sure if that answered anything, but it gives the perspective of how the game runs currently.
wormyxl wrote: This option can be used in addition to pre-game crafting. The time is to represent actually making the item as opposed to just filling out a sheet at dinner and handing it to the GM to get a tag.

While it is true that the onus is now shifted to be on the player to be more meticulous about their math when crafting, accidents will happen. The impact of crafting something you don't necessarily have the stuff for has little impact on the overall game as a whole. It also has the same effect as the situation: A person thought they had a tag for an injection, used it on a person in the middle of a fight, and then found out later that the tag was lost or stolen without their knowledge.

The creation of Temporary Tags is to take burden off of the GM at the game in exchange for burden between games. There is MUCH more time between games that the GM can use to convert tags when compared to the amount of time it would take to print tags in the middle of the game.

Again, all of my points for this option are moot if the decision is to go with "no crafting in the middle of a game"

I guess, ultimately, I'm against mid-game crafting, but I'll address a couple points.

First, if you use an injection mid-game, you MUST check your item cards and cross it off as you use it. When you have the tags for injections or bandages or the like, most characters keep pretty good track of what they have. I definitely know when I am down to only 5 or 6 bandages and use them sparingly.

Second, as N8 has a separate job outside of the game, I would rather he spend his free time focused on Mods and storyline than translating Temporary Tags into item cards or checking our math. I feel pretty negatively about giving more work to N8 between games when we don't have to create the Temporary Tags in the first place...So, even if we allow mid-game crafting, I don't particularly like this option. Sorry. :(

wormyxl wrote: The idea is that crafting is a field of study and each recipe is a specific focus within that study to know how to make that specific thing. For example, I can be really good at making computers, but have no idea how to wire a house. Both would involve the field of electronics and electrical engineering, and a computer is arguably more complex than home wiring. That said... this is merely an option and the current one isn't a bad alternative.
True, but I see it differently. You may be really good at making computers, but not know how to wire a house; however, you have the expertise (electronics and engineering crafting levels) and the recipes (computer making and house wiring) to be able to do both. The difference is that you have chosen to practice the recipe for computer making instead of the recipe for house wiring. This makes you good at one versus the other.

As a geologist, I have the knowledge to identify igneous, metamorphic, and sedimentary rocks; however, I chose to use the recipes for igneous and metamorphic rocks rather than sedimentary rocks. Though, if I take the time, I have the ability to identify those sedimentary rocks.

I suppose, if the recipes that you were allowed to buy were determined by your level of crafting, that could work, but I think the recipes are already limited by the amount of effort and components, so limiting them to only the ones that you had bought would further hinder a crafter...and doesn't make sense based on my description above.

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Crafting System

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:37 am

wormyxl wrote:
Sorry, poor wording on my part. I fixed it in the original post to be "Crafting may not occur DURING the event". The intent here is that you can no longer use mid day crafting during the event.

Oh! Ok then! Agreed!

wormyxl
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Re: Crafting System

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:19 am

AnnalyseTaenarys wrote: I guess it's never been an issue with mid-game crafting (i.e. Saturday afternoon) because most people get the crafting done at the start of the game. I think it's a combination of the incentive to craft early as well as the incentive to play longer by not adding mid-game crafting.

Not sure if that answered anything, but it gives the perspective of how the game runs currently.
That helps a lot! The issues that existed when I was playing was a line of people at 6pm when n8 would come in to do mid day crafting and then not having everything people needed. Those were the issue I was trying to alleviate.
AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:
I guess, ultimately, I'm against mid-game crafting, but I'll address a couple points.

First, if you use an injection mid-game, you MUST check your item cards and cross it off as you use it. When you have the tags for injections or bandages or the like, most characters keep pretty good track of what they have. I definitely know when I am down to only 5 or 6 bandages and use them sparingly.

Second, as N8 has a separate job outside of the game, I would rather he spend his free time focused on Mods and storyline than translating Temporary Tags into item cards or checking our math. I feel pretty negatively about giving more work to N8 between games when we don't have to create the Temporary Tags in the first place...So, even if we allow mid-game crafting, I don't particularly like this option. Sorry. :(
Yeah, but accidents happen as I doubt people pull out tags mid fight to mark uses off... but I could be wrong. Either way, I would think that it is easier to make sure you are doing math correctly when you are sitting down in a calm area than in the heat of a battle (whether crafting or marking off tag uses)
AnnalyseTaenarys wrote: True, but I see it differently. You may be really good at making computers, but not know how to wire a house; however, you have the expertise (electronics and engineering crafting levels) and the recipes (computer making and house wiring) to be able to do both. The difference is that you have chosen to practice the recipe for computer making instead of the recipe for house wiring. This makes you good at one versus the other.

As a geologist, I have the knowledge to identify igneous, metamorphic, and sedimentary rocks; however, I chose to use the recipes for igneous and metamorphic rocks rather than sedimentary rocks. Though, if I take the time, I have the ability to identify those sedimentary rocks.

I suppose, if the recipes that you were allowed to buy were determined by your level of crafting, that could work, but I think the recipes are already limited by the amount of effort and components, so limiting them to only the ones that you had bought would further hinder a crafter...and doesn't make sense based on my description above.
I see what you're getting at here. And in your example I'd view the crafting level as your expertise and ability to learn how to identify igneous, metamorphic, and sedimentary rocks... but you have only purchased the igneous and metamorphic "recipes" and if you wanted to get the sedimentary "recipe" you already have that expertise (levels in geology).

All this said... this method for acquiring recipes would burden the Karma of crafters more than it does now, so it may not be worthwhile...

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Crafting System

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:30 pm

wormyxl wrote:
Yeah, but accidents happen as I doubt people pull out tags mid fight to mark uses off... but I could be wrong. Either way, I would think that it is easier to make sure you are doing math correctly when you are sitting down in a calm area than in the heat of a battle (whether crafting or marking off tag uses).
Personally, I only use bandages, so I know in my head how many bandages I have at the start of a battle. If I don't mark them down during the battle, then I write them down the minute the battle ends. If I start the battle with 5 bandages and use 4, I know I only have one left in that fight.

Olive, have you had issues with your injections?

Sorry, I've just never seen this to be an issue.

wormyxl wrote: I see what you're getting at here. And in your example I'd view the crafting level as your expertise and ability to learn how to identify igneous, metamorphic, and sedimentary rocks... but you have only purchased the igneous and metamorphic "recipes" and if you wanted to get the sedimentary "recipe" you already have that expertise (levels in geology).

All this said... this method for acquiring recipes would burden the Karma of crafters more than it does now, so it may not be worthwhile...

Well, I don't like having to purchase recipes for your second point here, yes. (Karma burden)

But I also don't think that limiting the recipes you have access to based on your karma isn't the best option as it's already limited by the expertise/level that you purchase. Knowing the methods of identification in geology is the base knowledge. That allows me to identify all three rock types. So, the level is the knowledge, and the recipe is what you choose to do with it. A crafter would learn the base knowledge, aka, learning addition. This then opens you up to the recipes of being able to add various numbers. You know addition, so you can add 5 to any number. You can add 7 to any number. Etcetera. Once you learn addition, you don't have to further study the recipes in order to add different numbers (sorry, that went like super basic!).

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jazzman831
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Re: Crafting System

Post by jazzman831 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:13 pm

No offense to anyone involved in the discussion thus far, as there have been a large number of walls o' text passed around, but I'm not going to bother wasting my time discussing solutions until someone presents a solid argument that a problem exists in the first place.
wormyxl wrote:The crafting system as it is now wants you to do all your crafting pregame but doesn't force it.
So?
wormyxl wrote:This is because of how much burden it puts on plot midgame. It either needs to be removed from midgame crafting or made easier on plot midgame.
The current rules are the solution to the problem of mid-game logistics period, not the problem themselves. This problem statement is perfectly accurate description of the state of the game before we gave a bonus to pre-game crafting. Now I'd hardly say plot is burdened with dinner-time logistics. Not only that, but N8 and Jay have been working to come up with systems to make the "shack" side of logistics faster as well. I think every game I've seen it's gotten a little bit faster and easier for the GM to handle crafting.
wormyxl wrote:As the system is written now (assuming people don't want to give a headache to plot) all crafting is done prior to game. This makes all that karma spent on crafting skills useless while at the game. Making it possible to craft at game is a way to give those karma expenditures a use while at the game.
To agree with what Ander said, the items resulting from crafting are themselves the usefulness gained by karma expended on crafting skills. I don't need to be able to directly use a skill during actual gameplay to feel like the skill is not a waste of karma. (I've not once been hit with radiation, but somewhere in the next 30 or so karma I'm planning on picking up a Resist Radiation. If not using skills is wasting karma I wouldn't have a need to ever buy it). Furthermore, you totally can craft during the game (you even say as much in your first point); mid-game logistics is still a thing, as is jury-rigging. We've also got a proposed modification out there that has the potential to add mid-game crafting. Lastly, I have never seen nor heard of this complaint. So assuming that everything else I said is wrong, I would still need to see some people come forth and agree that they feel like their karma is wasted on crafting before I go and try to debate methods of fixing this.
-Jebediah the Proud

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Olive Wilson
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Re: Crafting System

Post by Olive Wilson » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:00 pm

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


.

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Jay Belarpin
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Re: Crafting System

Post by Jay Belarpin » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:52 pm

jazzman831 wrote: The current rules are the solution to the problem of mid-game logistics period, not the problem themselves.
Exactly.

When we were looking at how to fix logistics, the suggestion was to require ALL logistics for all game days to happen before game on. Most people were down with it, and we made it optional with a benefit because of the holdouts. Pretty much every player now does all their crafting up front and the few that didn't want to (so they could craft reactively) pretty much don't show up anymore.


On to other topics of the thread that I wont quote, mostly out of laziness.

Wasted Karma

Crafting is by far one of the best investments of Karma you can have. During logistics periods you can convert salvage into IG items. During the game it can provide useful information about the game or even give you the solution to a puzzle. How many other skills in the game can you use both between game (or before game on) and during game?
Maybe connections? Maybe Follow the Money?

What is effort?
Effort would best be described as the application of expertise over time. A novice mechanic might take 45 minutes to do an oil change, an expert might take 5 (for example). Likewise, a character with one level of engineering might make a component or two in the time it takes an expert (7+ with some master crafting) to pump out buckets of them.




My vote is for no change.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

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Drakkon
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Re: Crafting System

Post by Drakkon » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:53 pm

^
Heh, Amature.

Plot
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Re: Crafting System

Post by Plot » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:47 pm

My vote is to completely remove mid-game crafting and maintain the bonus for pre-game crafting.

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