Crafting System

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Jay Belarpin
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Crafting System

Post by Jay Belarpin » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:08 pm

WormyXL to start

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Final Decision Space
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As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

wormyxl
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Re: Crafting System

Post by wormyxl » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:36 pm

Disclaimer: this is more targeted at an update that would be worked on over the course of a year...

There are multiple sections of this and they each have several options depending on what the game wants as an end goal. You don't necessarily have to use option A from all sections, you can mix and match for what is best for the feel the game is going for.

Reasons for these proposals:

1) The crafting system as it is now wants you to do all your crafting pregame but doesn't force it. This is because of how much burden it puts on plot midgame. It either needs to be removed from midgame crafting or made easier on plot midgame.

2) As the system is written now (assuming people don't want to give a headache to plot) all crafting is done prior to game. This makes all that karma spent on crafting skills useless while at the game. Making it possible to craft at game is a way to give those karma expenditures a use while at the game.

Pregame crafting:

A) You can craft items prior to game assuming you have the specific recipe and appropriate components to do so. Each level gives you a set amount of crafting points to use towards making items (similar to effort now). This limits the amount of items being made via two restrictions... personal skill (amount of levels) and resources (components).

B) You can craft items prior to game assuming you have the specific recipe and appropriate components to do so. There is no limit on the amount of items you can make, as long as you have the components to make them. This is the thought that there is a large amount of downtime between games so your only limiting factor is the stuff you have.

C) You cannot make items between two games. This could be because between games is travel between safe locations and it's not safe to stop to try and make things.

At game crafting:

A) You allow crafting to occure at the event. All crafters document what they want to craft and have this documentation (and the corresponding components/effort expended) turned in by a specific time on saturday (time to be set so as to give plot time to print the tags). Shack will print these out and distribute them at dinner meal. This streamlines it for plot so they only have to do one printing at the event and they only have to print what is made. It also limits how much a character can make based on an effort total and a components total.

B) You allow crafting to occure at the event. All crafters have an effort limit while at the event. All crafting recipes require an amount of time of RP based on the complexity of the recipe (1-15 min). Once the RP time has passed the crafter writes out a Temporary Tag, fills out a logistics paper, and then turns in all components used and the logistics paper into a neutral location (a locked box with a slot in the top put in the tavern for example). At the end of the event the box and all Temporary Tags are collected by logistics and an evaluation is done to make sure no one did math wrong. At the start of the next event all Temporary Tags turned in will be made into real tags and given out at that player's next check in. This has the benefit of allowing crafting to occure during the event while not burdening logistics during the event.

C) Same as option B but instead you no longer have a set amount of effort while at the event. This allows crafting to be more of a main role as someone can do crafting all day long  (assuming they have the components to do so).

D) Crafting may not occur during the event

How to handle recipes:

A) Leave them as is now where you purchase levels of a craft and get a set list of recipes with the ability to get hidden recipes at the levels you have, without spending karma to gain them.

B) Change it so recipes are similar to how magic is set up where you purchase levels of recipes and then purchase each recipe in those levels.

C) Remove levels entirely and allow you to pick up any recipe by spending karma. There would be a small list of recipes in the rulebook but everything else would be found ingame.
Last edited by wormyxl on Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:54 am, edited 3 times in total.

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jazzman831
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Re: Crafting System

Post by jazzman831 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:08 pm

Before I delve into all the solutions you have presented, I should take a step back and ask the basic question: what problem is it all these solutions are trying to solve?
-Jebediah the Proud

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Crafting System

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:25 pm

wormyxl wrote: Pregame crafting:

A) You can craft items prior to game assuming you have the specific recipe and appropriate components to do so. Each level gives you a set amount of crafting points to use towards making items (similar to effort now). This limits the amount of items being made via two restrictions... personal skill (amount of levels) and resources (components).
This is what we do, to my understanding.
wormyxl wrote: B) You can craft items prior to game assuming you have the specific recipe and appropriate components to do so. There is no limit on the amount of items you can make, as long as you have the components to make them. This is the thought that there is a large amount of downtime between games so your only limiting factor is the stuff you have.
I dislike this. The point of getting various levels of crafting is the increased amount of effort and complexity of recipes. So, I don't like having infinite effort.
wormyxl wrote: C) You cannot make items between two games. This could be because between games is travel between safe locations and it's not safe to stop to try and make things.
No.
wormyxl wrote: At game crafting:

A) You allow crafting to occure at the event. All crafters document what they want to craft and have this documentation (and the corresponding components/effort expended) turned in by a specific time on saturday (time to be set so as to give plot time to print the tags). Shack will print these out and distribute them at dinner meal. This streamlines it for plot so they only have to do one printing at the event and they only have to print what is made. It also limits how much a character can make based on an effort total and a components total.
This would put way too much on the shoulders of the GM. He already has to plan, organize, and run the mods. Making him put together item tags during game just decreases game time. (I'm assuming by "Shack" you mean the GM, which is one person.)

It actually does NOT streamline it. The reason it was incentivized to craft at the start of the game is to put less work on the GM's shoulders and increase the amount of time we have to actually play the game. (And the limit on how much you can craft is already based on the effort and component total...?)
wormyxl wrote: B) You allow crafting to occure at the event. All crafters have an effort limit while at the event. All crafting recipes require an amount of time of RP based on the complexity of the recipe (1-15 min). Once the RP time has passed the crafter writes out a Temporary Tag, fills out a logistics paper, and then turns in all components used and the logistics paper into a neutral location (a locked box with a slot in the top put in the tavern for example). At the end of the event the box and all Temporary Tags are collected by logistics and an evaluation is done to make sure no one did math wrong. At the start of the next event all Temporary Tags turned in will be made into real tags and given out at that player's next check in. This has the benefit of allowing crafting to occure during the event while not burdening logistics during the event.
The time limit is nullified when you use our system. Our pre-game crafting signifies the effort a character would have spent between games to make items.

Also, if you evaluate after the event and find someone in fact HAS done their math wrong, then that character has been using items they may not have had the effort or components for.

Once you craft an item, it isn't a Temporary Tag, it's an item tag with an expiration date. If you add in the step to switch Temporary Tags to real tags, you are A) Effectively creating more work for the GM between games or before the next event, and B) Actually increasing the burden on the GM at the start of the next event when he has to switch those Temporary Tags and check everyone else's math.
wormyxl wrote: C) Same as option B but instead you no longer have a set amount of effort while at the event. This allows crafting to be more of a main role as someone can do crafting all day long  (assuming they have the components to do so).
No. See above.
wormyxl wrote: How to handle recipes:

A) Leave them as is now where you purchase levels of a craft and get a set list of recipes with the ability to get hidden recipes at the levels you have, without spending karma to gain them.
Yay! Me likey!
wormyxl wrote: B) Change it so recipes are similar to how magic is set up where you purchase levels of recipes and then purchase each recipe in those levels.
No. If you are learning a field of study (i.e. chemistry, engineering, electronics, medical), you are learning the aspects of that field (level of crafting), which gives you the knowledge to create various things. For instance, you don't just learn the chemistry of a battery, you learn ionic exchange and redox reactions, which are more broadly applicable.

Magic is, in my understanding, more of a practice skill, so when you are purchasing the various recipes, it signifies time spent practicing that spell.
wormyxl wrote: C) Remove levels entirely and allow you to pick up any recipe by spending karma. There would be a small list of recipes in the rulebook but everything else would be found ingame.
NO. For the same reason that you can't become a body-builder overnight (see other thread Bryan started for me), you can't automatically learn a crap-ton of recipes overnight, so you need the increasing amounts of education/crafting that you get from the various levels.

I greatly dislike being able to pick your recipes because of the lack of story-line basis (see my answer about knowledge on B) just above this one.

This also applies to finding the recipes IG. If you don't have the "Knowledge" to craft something, you sure as heck aren't going to be able to read a recipe and recreate the item from it.

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Ander
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Re: Crafting System

Post by Ander » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:35 am

I agree with most of Annalyse's points. But I would like to make a more general inquiry. Nowhere in the original post is there any mention of what the problem is that we are trying to solve. These discussions go a lot better when everyone knows what the goal is. So could you please clarify what is the flaw in the current crafting system that you hope to resolve here?

wormyxl
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Re: Crafting System

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:22 am

Edited original post to include reasons for these sugestions. I'll give direct responses to folks when I get to a computer... also I seem to have left off option D from "at event crafing"... it is now there :)

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Ander
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Re: Crafting System

Post by Ander » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:41 am

wormyxl wrote:Reasons for these proposals:

1) The crafting system as it is now wants you to do all your crafting pregame but doesn't force it. This is because of how much burden it puts on plot midgame. It either needs to be removed from midgame crafting or made easier on plot midgame.
I might be reading this wrong, but this seems to be an argument in favor of not changing anything? Or is the suggestion that we should require pre-game crafting rather than merely incentivizing it?
wormyxl wrote:2) As the system is written now (assuming people don't want to give a headache to plot) all crafting is done prior to game. This makes all that karma spent on crafting skills useless while at the game. Making it possible to craft at game is a way to give those karma expenditures a use while at the game.
I wouldn't say that requiring crafting pre-game makes the karma "useless" by any measure. Certainly no more so than other before-game skills. Funding, connections, follow the money, acquire. All intended to provide either items or information before game which can then be utilized in-game. The in-game benefit of the karma is the benefit of access to equipment or knowledge you would not have had otherwise. And crafting is arguably the most versatile example of this given the sheer variety of possible items.

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Crafting System

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:22 am

I agree with Ander on all points.


wormyxl wrote: D) Crafting may not occure at the event

But then what's the point of crafting?!?! We craft at the event to signify the crafting between games. At the start of the game, you get your new recipes based on the Karma you spent prior to game. Once you get those recipes, then you can craft. So, not allowing crafting nullifies crafting in general.

Therefore, I say, "No."

wormyxl
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Re: Crafting System

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:51 am

AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:
wormyxl wrote: Pregame crafting: Option A.
This is what we do, to my understanding.
Yes, it is. I'm just presenting it as one of the options available and what implications it has.

AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:
wormyxl wrote: Pregame Crafting: Option B
I dislike this. The point of getting various levels of crafting is the increased amount of effort and complexity of recipes. So, I don't like having infinite effort.
The concept of "Effort determines maximum amount you can make between events" is lost on me. The only things that go into making something are Time, Components, Expertise, and Tools. Your level represents your expertise in how well you can use what is available to you (components and tools). The only other thing is time... and effort representing time seems strange to me because there can be a variable amount of time between events, but for some reason the amount I can make never changes. If you want to argue story or realism then this doesn't make much sense to me. Mind you, I am not advocating for a system that directly relates your exact time between games
AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:
wormyxl wrote: At game crafting: Option A
This would put way too much on the shoulders of the GM. He already has to plan, organize, and run the mods. Making him put together item tags during game just decreases game time. (I'm assuming by "Shack" you mean the GM, which is one person.)

It actually does NOT streamline it. The reason it was incentivized to craft at the start of the game is to put less work on the GM's shoulders and increase the amount of time we have to actually play the game. (And the limit on how much you can craft is already based on the effort and component total...?)
This idea assumes that mid game crafting is still wanted, and presents a fix to put less work on the GM for mid game crafting. Option A is less work than what the current system has. In the current system the GM is required to print out a bunch of tags and hope to have the correct ones when he comes in. The players stand in line to hand the GM their saturday afternoon crafting. The GM then takes time to search through what he has to find what the players are making, hands them tags for what he has, and then has to go back to print out more if he didn't have enough. In the midgame crafting option A, all the printing is done at once and only what is needed is printed (instead of having extra leftover).
AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:
wormyxl wrote: At game crafting: Option B.
The time limit is nullified when you use our system. Our pre-game crafting signifies the effort a character would have spent between games to make items.

Also, if you evaluate after the event and find someone in fact HAS done their math wrong, then that character has been using items they may not have had the effort or components for.

Once you craft an item, it isn't a Temporary Tag, it's an item tag with an expiration date. If you add in the step to switch Temporary Tags to real tags, you are A) Effectively creating more work for the GM between games or before the next event, and B) Actually increasing the burden on the GM at the start of the next event when he has to switch those Temporary Tags and check everyone else's math.
This option can be used in addition to pre-game crafting. The time is to represent actually making the item as opposed to just filling out a sheet at dinner and handing it to the GM to get a tag.

While it is true that the onus is now shifted to be on the player to be more meticulous about their math when crafting, accidents will happen. The impact of crafting something you don't necessarily have the stuff for has little impact on the overall game as a whole. It also has the same effect as the situation: A person thought they had a tag for an injection, used it on a person in the middle of a fight, and then found out later that the tag was lost or stolen without their knowledge.

The creation of Temporary Tags is to take burden off of the GM at the game in exchange for burden between games. There is MUCH more time between games that the GM can use to convert tags when compared to the amount of time it would take to print tags in the middle of the game.

Again, all of my points for this option are moot if the decision is to go with "no crafting in the middle of a game"

AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:
wormyxl wrote: How to handle recipes: Option B
No. If you are learning a field of study (i.e. chemistry, engineering, electronics, medical), you are learning the aspects of that field (level of crafting), which gives you the knowledge to create various things. For instance, you don't just learn the chemistry of a battery, you learn ionic exchange and redox reactions, which are more broadly applicable.

Magic is, in my understanding, more of a practice skill, so when you are purchasing the various recipes, it signifies time spent practicing that spell.
The idea is that crafting is a field of study and each recipe is a specific focus within that study to know how to make that specific thing. For example, I can be really good at making computers, but have no idea how to wire a house. Both would involve the field of electronics and electrical engineering, and a computer is arguably more complex than home wiring. That said... this is merely an option and the current one isn't a bad alternative.

wormyxl
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Re: Crafting System

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:56 am

Ander wrote:
wormyxl wrote:Reasons for these proposals:

1) The crafting system as it is now wants you to do all your crafting pregame but doesn't force it. This is because of how much burden it puts on plot midgame. It either needs to be removed from midgame crafting or made easier on plot midgame.
I might be reading this wrong, but this seems to be an argument in favor of not changing anything? Or is the suggestion that we should require pre-game crafting rather than merely incentivizing it?
You are correct. One of the combinations of options would be to have all crafting be pregame and no "during game" crafting. That isn't a bad combo, just means that crafting (in my mind) would need some sort of minor tweak to how pregame crafting works since it would be losing the during game portion... that is unless people think that crafting in its original incarnation is too strong... then by all means give it the nerf bat :p
Ander wrote:
wormyxl wrote:2) As the system is written now (assuming people don't want to give a headache to plot) all crafting is done prior to game. This makes all that karma spent on crafting skills useless while at the game. Making it possible to craft at game is a way to give those karma expenditures a use while at the game.
I wouldn't say that requiring crafting pre-game makes the karma "useless" by any measure. Certainly no more so than other before-game skills. Funding, connections, follow the money, acquire. All intended to provide either items or information before game which can then be utilized in-game. The in-game benefit of the karma is the benefit of access to equipment or knowledge you would not have had otherwise. And crafting is arguably the most versatile example of this given the sheer variety of possible items.
You're correct... it isn't truely useless, just forces the player to lose out on adaptability in favor of 1 extra effort per level of crafting and help reduce the burden on the GM mid game.

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