Supplier Skill

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Ander
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Re: Supplier Skill

Post by Ander » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:29 pm

Plot wrote:I think I might be misunderstanding something, so just checking to ensure I'm following along the same trail of thought on this one:

What's being proposed would be the first ever character build skill that grants a PC free item tags every event that aren't in any way linked to actually playing in character and also aren't bought through Rads; yes?
Essentially, yes. What I am trying to resolve here is that currently acquiring salvage, other than buying it, requires the Repair skill. The Repair skill is extremely expensive for certain classes, understandably, because there is no reason for a magician to be able to fix armor. My problem with this is that the ability to Repair things should realistically have no impact on my ability to find and improvise components for a crafting skill. So I am faced with the choice of either buying salvage (an unreliable avenue at best) or paying a quite hefty sum of karma for a skill which I don't realistically need or want because it lumps in a largely unrelated effect.

There are several solutions to this problem. A few have been brought up that I like quite a bit better than any of mine, which was just the first thing I thought of. Newsflash: I over-complicate things. I honestly think I might like Tashias solution better, but I'm not sure yet.

Perhaps the simplest solution would be to separate the Salvage-finding and Armor Repairing functions into different skills.

TL;DR:The ability to break some piece of junk apart for a useful-looking piece really doesn't seem like it should require the same intricate mechanical knowledge as the main effect of the "Repair" skill.

edit: I realize this seems like a bit of an unrelated tangent, but that is the beauty of discussions: Over the course of this thread I have narrowed down my own understanding of what the actual problem is I was trying to solve.

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jazzman831
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Re: Supplier Skill

Post by jazzman831 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:39 pm

Ander wrote:Perhaps the simplest solution would be to separate the Salvage-finding and Armor Repairing functions into different skills.

TL;DR:The ability to break some piece of junk apart for a useful-looking piece really doesn't seem like it should require the same intricate mechanical knowledge as the main effect of the "Repair" skill.
Hey, there we go!
Ander wrote:I realize this seems like a bit of an unrelated tangent, but that is the beauty of discussions: Over the course of this thread I have narrowed down my own understanding of what the actual problem is I was trying to solve.
Heck yeah, problem solving methods!
-Jebediah the Proud

wormyxl
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Re: Supplier Skill

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:15 pm

I'm all for making salvage possible to get without needing repair... I'm not sure I like the idea of "free" stuff that doesn't come out of an event's distribution (assuming there is some distribution limit behind the scenes).

Maybe allowing crafting skills to break down objects to get scrap based on what it is? An enchanter could break down enchanter type stuff to get useful materials for enchanting... an engineer for engineering... etc

Plot
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Re: Supplier Skill

Post by Plot » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:07 am

Ander wrote:
Plot wrote:I think I might be misunderstanding something, so just checking to ensure I'm following along the same trail of thought on this one:

What's being proposed would be the first ever character build skill that grants a PC free item tags every event that aren't in any way linked to actually playing in character and also aren't bought through Rads; yes?
TL;DR:The ability to break some piece of junk apart for a useful-looking piece really doesn't seem like it should require the same intricate mechanical knowledge as the main effect of the "Repair" skill.
Insert anecdote: My neighbor across the street works in a factory where he fabricates parts for both the machines that do other work and custom orders for customers. Doesn’t make him an engineer. On the other spectrum I'm buddies with an automotive design engineer who doesn’t know how to change her own oil.
If the two of them worked together though... holy crap could they make some cool shit. Which is a great analogy of why Repair and Crafting skills are purposefully separate the way they are.


That said, I do like some of the ideas these discussions have spawned. So by all means, please continue.

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Supplier Skill

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:41 am

wormyxl wrote:I'm all for making salvage possible to get without needing repair... I'm not sure I like the idea of "free" stuff that doesn't come out of an event's distribution (assuming there is some distribution limit behind the scenes).

Maybe allowing crafting skills to break down objects to get scrap based on what it is? An enchanter could break down enchanter type stuff to get useful materials for enchanting... an engineer for engineering... etc

I am so beyond confused at this statement.....distribution? what?

I don't think enchanting items can be broken down....am I wrong? If so, what items are you talking about?

In conjunction, I don't like limiting times of breakdown. Being a geologist, I know that sciences and math are intertwined in many specializations, so differentiating them separates a bit of realism. I use Chemistry, Physics, Geometry/Math, Engineering, Environmental, etc. knowledge on a daily basis. (See suggestion below about having 1 crafting level each)



Ander wrote:Perhaps the simplest solution would be to separate the Salvage-finding and Armor Repairing functions into different skills.

TL;DR:The ability to break some piece of junk apart for a useful-looking piece really doesn't seem like it should require the same intricate mechanical knowledge as the main effect of the "Repair" skill.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to (at least partially) disagree. Having the Repair skill should definitely give you the ability to break down items into salvage. If you know how to repair something, you also know how to unrepair something. You said it wouldn't require the same intricate mechanical knowledge as the main Repair skill, but if that's the case, then maybe there should be some levels of crafting (like 1 each in Chemical, Electronics, and Engineering) in order to get the repair skill. That would signify a basic knowledge of devices and how they are put together, which would translate into being able to assemble or disassemble items/equipment.

That being said, I would not be apposed to adding a Salvage-finding skill (or ability - you've already seen my other thread).

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Ander
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Re: Supplier Skill

Post by Ander » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:50 am

AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:Sorry, but I'm going to have to (at least partially) disagree. Having the Repair skill should definitely give you the ability to break down items into salvage. If you know how to repair something, you also know how to unrepair something. You said it wouldn't require the same intricate mechanical knowledge as the main Repair skill, but if that's the case, then maybe there should be some levels of crafting (like 1 each in Chemical, Electronics, and Engineering) in order to get the repair skill. That would signify a basic knowledge of devices and how they are put together, which would translate into being able to assemble or disassemble items/equipment.

That being said, I would not be apposed to adding a Salvage-finding skill (or ability - you've already seen my other thread).
I actually don't think we are disagreeing at all. Just because they are two separate skills doesn't mean they can't be related. For example: we could split Repair into Scrounger and Repair, make Scrounger a pre-req for Repair and lower the cost of Repair accordingly so that the total cost of both remains equal to the previous cost of the single skill. This way, you would have to know how to break stuff in order to fix stuff, but you wouldn't necessarily need to know how to fix stuff in order to break stuff.

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Supplier Skill

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:22 am

Ander wrote:
AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:Sorry, but I'm going to have to (at least partially) disagree. Having the Repair skill should definitely give you the ability to break down items into salvage. If you know how to repair something, you also know how to unrepair something. You said it wouldn't require the same intricate mechanical knowledge as the main Repair skill, but if that's the case, then maybe there should be some levels of crafting (like 1 each in Chemical, Electronics, and Engineering) in order to get the repair skill. That would signify a basic knowledge of devices and how they are put together, which would translate into being able to assemble or disassemble items/equipment.

That being said, I would not be apposed to adding a Salvage-finding skill (or ability - you've already seen my other thread).
I actually don't think we are disagreeing at all. Just because they are two separate skills doesn't mean they can't be related. For example: we could split Repair into Scrounger and Repair, make Scrounger a pre-req for Repair and lower the cost of Repair accordingly so that the total cost of both remains equal to the previous cost of the single skill. This way, you would have to know how to break stuff in order to fix stuff, but you wouldn't necessarily need to know how to fix stuff in order to break stuff.
Ok, rephrase: AGREE! :D

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jazzman831
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Re: Supplier Skill

Post by jazzman831 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:46 am

So we've wandered a bit, but I think it's safe to assume that most people have given up on making Supplier a thing at this point.

I, too, like the idea of a Scrounger --> Repair skill tree. In addition to the above-mentioned benefits, it makes it easier for new characters to access much-needed salvage. I've been playing with a character idea that needs salvage in the first logistics period to be useful during the first game, and unless you are a gnome or fixer, it's really hard to fit that in.

If we go with something like that, there are three main issues that I see:
  1. How to split the karma costs? I'd say make it 50/50 Scrounger vs Repair. It doesn't seem like it would be much more difficult to safely take things apart for usable materials than to use those scrap materials to put something back together. For Adepts, repair is currently 15 karma, so it would need to be 7 and 8... or we change the cost a smidge and call it 7/7 or 8/8.
  2. What to do with the first-game benefit of 10 salvage for repair? I would argue that it should all go on the scrounger skill. Sure, it's now more salvage/karma spend, but the other option is to split the salvage between the two skills, and that doesn't feel entirely right either. Why would you get more salvage for being able to fix stuff?
  3. What to do with Gnomish Repair? N8 suggested in another thread (and I really like the simplification) that we get rid of Gnomish repair and instead give Gnomes a discount to Repair OR make Repair always cost 6 karma, no matter what class they choose. Going along these lines, I would think that we replace Gnomish Repair with access to Scrounger/Repair at 3 karma each.
-Jebediah the Proud

Plot
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Re: Supplier Skill

Post by Plot » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:47 am

Forget not that beginning characters start with salvage based on skills.

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jazzman831
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Re: Supplier Skill

Post by jazzman831 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:28 pm

I know that crafting also provides salvage, but it's only between .66/karma (Gnome) and .2/karma (Troll) (.5/karma for any other race). Compare that to repair, which is .5/karma (Magician), up through 1.66/karma (Fixer)!

Plus you only get that 10 salvage if you have the Repair at character creation, which provides a big incentive to find a way to spend allllll that karma at the beginning instead of waiting and saving some up later.
-Jebediah the Proud

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