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Re: Point Blank Shot

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:54 pm
by AnnalyseTaenarys
jazzman831 wrote:And in case anyone is not clear, Tashia means that literally. Like, with her foot. :-p
Steel-toed boots and all.

Re: Point Blank Shot

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:11 pm
by Plot
wormyxl wrote:@Plot
Thank you for the reply, 30% is larger than I anticipated and it's clearly being purchased. Would you be willing to elaborate what makes PBS different from BANG that makes it less able to be abused? I'm curious because if this is a topic that has come up in the past and tested then I'm all for nixing this topic.
BANG wasn't a skill it was a rule intended to account for melee (N)PC characters closing in on ranged folks. Which is to say, everyone could use it as often as they like without regard to whether or not those you used it against were also using airsoft or melee and without regard to who approached who.

Re: Point Blank Shot

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:50 pm
by Ander
jazzman831 wrote:And in case anyone is not clear, Tashia means that literally. Like, with her foot. :-p
I believe you :)
Plot wrote:BANG wasn't a skill it was a rule intended to account for melee (N)PC characters closing in on ranged folks. Which is to say, everyone could use it as often as they like without regard to whether or not those you used it against were also using airsoft or melee and without regard to who approached who.
So do you think there is a way to implement a version of this in a limited fashion without being unbalanced (perhaps in the form of a "pistol whip" skill mentioned earlier) or is this just a non-starter? I can see where the desire for a change is coming from, but that doesn't necessarily mean change is a good idea.

side note: It's weird that I have been most active in this thread over almost any other topic. Not using guns or melee much I am probably the absolute least qualified to hold an opinion in this thread. I will now recede back into my happy world of spell packets and talking my way out of combat. :)

Re: Point Blank Shot

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:18 am
by Plot
Ander wrote:
jazzman831 wrote:And in case anyone is not clear, Tashia means that literally. Like, with her foot. :-p
I believe you :)
Plot wrote:BANG wasn't a skill it was a rule intended to account for melee (N)PC characters closing in on ranged folks. Which is to say, everyone could use it as often as they like without regard to whether or not those you used it against were also using airsoft or melee and without regard to who approached who.
So do you think there is a way to implement a version of this in a limited fashion without being unbalanced (perhaps in the form of a "pistol whip" skill mentioned earlier) or is this just a non-starter? I can see where the desire for a change is coming from, but that doesn't necessarily mean change is a good idea.
I'm certainly not against it, though carrying a melee weapon seems like a more simple approach.

Re: Point Blank Shot

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:47 am
by AnnalyseTaenarys
Plot wrote:
.... carrying a melee weapon seems like a more simple approach.

Boom! Done! Solution Found! Mic Drop!

Re: Point Blank Shot

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:59 am
by Ander
AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:
Plot wrote:
.... carrying a melee weapon seems like a more simple approach.
Boom! Done! Solution Found! Mic Drop!
While probably true, this also doesn't quite address the core concern which seems to be that our rules are not correctly allowing for a real world capability, i.e. using a gun, however unskillfully, within ten feet.

Re: Point Blank Shot

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:06 am
by AnnalyseTaenarys
Ander wrote:
AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:
Plot wrote:
.... carrying a melee weapon seems like a more simple approach.
Boom! Done! Solution Found! Mic Drop!
While probably true, this also doesn't quite address the core concern which seems to be that our rules are not correctly allowing for a real world capability, i.e. using a gun, however unskillfully, within ten feet.

Ander! Shhhhh!!!! You don't use guns! Or melee! Let me have my moment! :P

Re: Point Blank Shot

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:55 am
by Swordguy
Well, this thread has certainly been a thing which exists.

OK, so for the people discussing realism. Something very close to 90% of all IRL gunfights happen within 7 yards (21 feet), and of those, greater than half happen at less than 10 feet. Essentially, people talk to each other at a normal distance, they argue at a normal distance, and they haul out guns at that distance and they open fire at that distance.

Hit rates in IRL gunfights for police are on the order of 15%. CCW carriers hit at roughly a 25% clip. Actual IRL soldiers don't count because soldiers are taught to establish fire superiority from cover (ie, shoot a LOT of bullets to keep their heads down) while allied soldiers flank the enemy position...which means that hit rates are ludicrously low (1 hit per ~5,000 rounds fired is the best rate I've found from Afghanistan). It's not until you get to honest-to-god elite forces: SOGCOM types, SAS, GIGN, and so forth, that you start seeing hit rates in close-quarters combat in the 50% or better region. Yes, for those guys, they *are* essentially auto-hitting at 10 feet. Absolutely nothing and nobody in Wastelands has access to the sort of holistic and constant training that SOGCOM soldiers go through, and that training is what makes autohits at close range a thing. Thusly, "realism" is not an argument.

(sources are citable upon request - I've learned that nobody really reads them so I don't bother putting them inline anymore)

For the people discussing game balance. PBS is probably overcosted. Especially now that Block can be used against it. However much it's a kludge solution attempting to balance out the requirements to keep guns and melee all viable, the existence of PBS as defined in the rulebook now is still better than anything else thus far discussed, because everything thus far discussed will tip the overall balance point out of whack.

With that said, you know what's frustrating for a gun character? To be on a mod with a ton of melee NPCs who all have multiple Flickers. (Flicker spiders who are swinging a Web effect are even worse.) Or the NPC who does "Flicker" (goes from being out of range to halfway to me), "Flicker Again" (goes from halfway to into melee), "20 Magic Direct" (which for 90% of characters is an automatic "fall down and bleed")...because there's literally nothing you can do - no combination of IG or OOG skill can avoid this unless you just turn and run, which in practical terms is an option much less often than you might think it is.

So yes, I can totally understand where people are coming from on this, but I think PBS is an unpleasant solution we're all going to have to live with, because there isn't a better solution as long as the existing airsoft safety rules are in place.

Finally, so you know where I'm coming from, my PC does have PBS. I have very few buys of it, and it's almost exclusively paired with the Headshot skill, because if something is up in my face, it wants to be there because it's built to be very good at melee, while my PC is not. Therefore, removing it ASAP is definitely a priority. I can't remember the last time I used PBS WITHOUT pairing it with a Headshot skill use. It is definitely a skill purchased for emergencies, not as a general usage skill. I am therefore extremely concerned about the ability of Block to stop a 19-karma ability (PBS+Headshot); especially because anything closing to melee in the first place is going to have Blocks anyway.


Conclusion: my recommendation is to keep the PBS usage rules as they are. However, the skill needs a price review by N8 ASAP. The utility of PBS has significantly lessened: anything that's going to be attempting to close into melee in the first place is GOING to have Blocks, and therefore the odds that the PBS actually connects is going to be much lower than it was before, and therefore the skill becomes less useful and simultaneously needs to be taken in larger quantities than prior; both of which necessitate a price decrease (or removing the ability of Block to stop a PBS; that's OK too).

Re: Point Blank Shot

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:15 am
by Olive Wilson
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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Re: Point Blank Shot

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:18 am
by Plot
The spiders of shoehorning plot died a firey death. Sadly not before their inception.