Point Blank Shot

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wormyxl
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:40 pm

@Olive
The primary reason for this is because the mechanics strictly limit something due to safety with little to compensate for that. The entire existence that is LARP is about compensating for safety restrictions with effects. How well you balance the offset or represent that effect is what I have an issue with. Secondary reason is because PBS is a more expensive (but admittedly more available) skill that does a decent amount of damage and carries Stun. This is equal to or worse than simply being a mage and casting ignite... and Ignite can be cast by anyone (assuming there is someone who can fabricate those items).

To using packets: This idea isn't bad and is used in other projectile weapon larps. As for not being able to know how many rounds you have... right now, when you're in the heat of the moment you likely won't notice if you actually shot a bb into the ground... could be out... could have jammed (I've seen far too many jams)... as long as the pop was heard and you called damage the target will likely be taking it.

@Felix
I believe my Wastelands game time sums to about 1 year, but it was a little while ago so I'm not 100% sure on that. That said, I have been larping in general for over 12 years and have at least 3 years of active design and test of design experience in larping (guess and check learning combined with class study). This is simply to provide information as to where I'm coming from as I don't think you know me very well (I take no offense to your statement).

To address your comment, you may be seeing PBS used less actively due to its strict limitation and a very low cost vs reward. Also, if you aren't seeing it used you don't know if it is or isn't a problem. I'd like to know (from our logistics people) about how many people actually have PBS... I'd venture to guess its a fairly small amount, and if so would show that there is little desire to purchase the skill (which is a sign saying that something with the skill isn't working well enough).

@Annalyse
There is no real NEED when you look at it... it just feels like a dud skill when you compare it to the alternatives, but without it you have no ability to shoot at someone with your gun. When you say that you've not seen PBS being a problem in your 5 games, are you saying that you've seen it used and think its powerful enough, or just haven't noticed anyone complaining about its power?

wormyxl
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:54 pm

@Jazzman
Huh... I seem to have forgotten some things. So they aren't really able to be equated much... I thought adrenaline rush allowed you to ignore the CC part of ignite... it does not.

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:57 pm

wormyxl wrote: @Annalyse
There is no real NEED when you look at it... it just feels like a dud skill when you compare it to the alternatives, but without it you have no ability to shoot at someone with your gun. When you say that you've not seen PBS being a problem in your 5 games, are you saying that you've seen it used and think its powerful enough, or just haven't noticed anyone complaining about its power?
The former, most definitely. I think it is a powerful enough skill and well defined as is (again, using my inclination to lean towards storyline-based acquisition). I have seen it used many times and it is always well worked into the fights and scenarios.

Also, no one has complained about it, but I feel that's because it already works so well in what we do that there's nothing to complain about.

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Felix Birch
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by Felix Birch » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:02 pm

@Felix
I believe my Wastelands game time sums to about 1 year, but it was a little while ago so I'm not 100% sure on that. That said, I have been larping in general for over 12 years and have at least 3 years of active design and test of design experience in larping (guess and check learning combined with class study). This is simply to provide information as to where I'm coming from as I don't think you know me very well (I take no offense to your statement
).

That's nice to know. No disrespect, but given that it has been a while and your lack of familiarity with the actual in-game mechanics, I'd probably take this discussion a bit more serious. Others are effort posting, but I'll be straight with you. I'd feel more comfortable with discussing changes to the game if you were 1) Invested, 2) a Regular, 3) more than just an Avatar on a screen. Given it hasnt been an issue until now, brought up by someone who is none of the things outlined above, I'm not convinced nor do I wish to see it changed. Truly a non-issue.

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:07 pm

wormyxl wrote:@Olive
The primary reason for this is because the mechanics strictly limit something due to safety with little to compensate for that. The entire existence that is LARP is about compensating for safety restrictions with effects. How well you balance the offset or represent that effect is what I have an issue with.


Yes, it does limit something due to safety, but I think it also limits it based on karma/experience (I know, dead horse, sorry). To me, it's no different than limiting higher levels of crafting, this is just a limit on higher skills in gun-usage. Just because you can shoot a gun doesn't mean you're good at it and PBS is a pretty developed skill.

The offset for safety is shooting into the ground, in my opinion.
wormyxl wrote:@Secondary reason is because PBS is a more expensive (but admittedly more available) skill that does a decent amount of damage and carries Stun. This is equal to or worse than simply being a mage and casting ignite... and Ignite can be cast by anyone (assuming there is someone who can fabricate those items).
Annalyse definitely disagrees that a bullet stun/PBS is worse than Ignite! 100% (See? I can make leshy jokes too, guys!)

However, I think the higher expense equates to the need for more experience to get it. Same with crafting. I don't learn how to make guns overnight, I have to learn it by first learning the levels below it.

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Olive Wilson
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by Olive Wilson » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:18 pm

wormyxl wrote:@Olive
The primary reason for this is because the mechanics strictly limit something due to safety with little to compensate for that. The entire existence that is LARP is about compensating for safety restrictions with effects. How well you balance the offset or represent that effect is what I have an issue with. Secondary reason is because PBS is a more expensive (but admittedly more available) skill that does a decent amount of damage and carries Stun.

To using packets: This idea isn't bad and is used in other projectile weapon larps. As for not being able to know how many rounds you have... right now, when you're in the heat of the moment you likely won't notice if you actually shot a bb into the ground... could be out... could have jammed (I've seen far too many jams)... as long as the pop was heard and you called damage the target will likely ?
From my understanding, you technically are stunned every time you are shot with a bullet. Point blank is not more powerful from getting shot at any other distance. It just simply allows you to shoot, in point blank range.

"As long as the pop is heard..." I'm sorry but depending on the weapon you never hear the pop. The pistol I use shoots at about 125fps and I rarely hear it shoot but it shoots slow enough for me to see it. In the middle of battle, and especially with other people shooting, relying on the "pop" is useless. This skill is not perfect. Like many of the other skills the trust is put into the player that they do discharge their weapon at the ground in point blank range while they call point blank.
If we want to continue arguing about the realism of this skill, we have many other unrealistic skills to discuss that aren't being represented well enough based on what you want.


.

Plot
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by Plot » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:32 pm

wormyxl wrote: I'd like to know (from our logistics people) about how many people actually have PBS... I'd venture to guess its a fairly small amount, and if so would show that there is little desire to purchase the skill (which is a sign saying that something with the skill isn't working well enough).
Among the active population: Not the business of another player, active or otherwise.

Among the 287 characters in the games history 89 individual sheets with the skill.
Total by class
Soldiers 35
Agent 32
Fixers 8
Magicians 4
Adepts 7
Other/unlockable: 3


I took the time to read DM notes from previous rules discussions, even ones that took place back when I played a PC. This topic is proceeded by the previous Bang Rule which meant doing 'auto damage' when within 10' of someone to 'auto hit' them with 10 balistic or whatever you're shooting. Which in its time completely nullified anyone playing a melee based character or melee based NPCs and led to some slippery mechanic use.
"Point Blank Shot is designed and created to form a bridge over the toxic use of BANG between the safety aspect of airsoft use, preventing Wastelands from becoming just a flavored MilSim and creating a balance point between melee and ranged combatants."

Disclosure: At that time, I was not playing a combat centric character and though it often occured around me I was rarely if ever subjected to or used the Bang Rule as a PC. However without getting into the creative abuses/dickery of its use, I do remember at that time several gun centric PCs would move into melee range as quickly as possible do a bunch of 'BANG's as fast as they could say them until everything was dead and then "reload".

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:40 pm

Plot wrote: Disclosure: At that time, I was not playing a combat centric character and though it often occured around me I was rarely if ever subjected to or used the Bang Rule as a PC. However without getting into the creative abuses/dickery of its use, I do remember at that time several gun centric PCs would move into melee range as quickly as possible do a bunch of 'BANG's as fast as they could say them until everything was dead and then "reload".

I would have kicked them.

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jazzman831
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by jazzman831 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:50 pm

Thanks for the historical perspective, N8. I don't think anyone currently involved in the discussion was around back then, so none of us knew of "the dark days". Also the numbers are interesting (both in what they contain and that you can access them so easily -- now I wanna mine character data and make graphs!!). FWIW I'm an Adept with PBS on my short list of skills to buy next.... it's just a very long short list so I haven't gotten to it yet.

And in case anyone is not clear, Tashia means that literally. Like, with her foot. :-p
-Jebediah the Proud

wormyxl
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:54 pm

@Plot
Thank you for the reply, 30% is larger than I anticipated and it's clearly being purchased. Would you be willing to elaborate what makes PBS different from BANG that makes it less able to be abused? I'm curious because if this is a topic that has come up in the past and tested then I'm all for nixing this topic.

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