Point Blank Shot

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wormyxl
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:04 am

@jazzman
None of your objections take into account the qualifying statement at the bottom of my post which adds that you can't reload (maybe "rack" or "cock" would have been better terms) while in melee with someone. I mostly equate the power of a firearm to that of a person casting ignite in melee... the firearm has almost the same defenses, is almost equally likely to hit, does less affective cc, and wouldn't be able to be continously done while someone is actively fighting you in melee.

Now, I fully understand that guns are MUCH more available than magic is... which is why I have very little like for option A and am more in favor of limiting pbs in some other way.

Second point: none of the options give you any immunity to effects. Option D simply allows you to ignore the interrupt of being in melee.

@Annalyse
That supernatural speed and accuracy is tempered in option C, changing it to be more of a glancing shot at lower ranks and much more precise at higher ranks. That said, none of these options are perfect and may need work and/or some combination of them to be able to fit in both thematically and balance wise.

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Ander
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by Ander » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:09 am

wormyxl wrote: None of your objections take into account the qualifying statement at the bottom of my post which adds that you can't reload (maybe "rack" or "cock" would have been better terms) while in melee with someone.
So, just to confirm I am reading that correctly: After using the skill once you would be unable to use it again until after you have escaped melee combat (i.e. no hostiles within 10 feet of you). If so that is drastically different to how I interpreted the initial post.

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:26 am

Ander wrote: I agree with that in-game interpretation. However I do think there needs to be some sort of change, be it a difference in this skill or a rules modification or a new skill altogether, to account for the fact that anybody can fire a gun within 10 feet. Not everyone has the highly trained relfexes and whatnot to automatically hit, but anyone can pull the trigger and hope for the best exactly as they could at any other distance. Currently our rules do not account for this fact.
Never even considered that, but you're right! I'm not sure how it would be modified, though, as my character is mostly melee. I'm only starting to learn to use a gun as Annalyse, so I won't be buying the PBS anytime soon as it doesn't fit in my character line, to my interpretation....

Hmmm.....thinking out loud, so don't criticize. What if there was a prerequisite to the PBS? Like a Marksman skill or something that allowed you to shoot the ground near someone (within 10 ft) and potentially miss them (we would have to figure out how this was determined). But once you gain so many levels of Marksman, then you can get PBS which allows you to FOR SURE hit them?

(A bit off topic and irrelevant, but has anyone ever considered a 'per game' karma buy limit? For instance, on the Marksman idea, let's say you need 8 buys of Marksman before you can buy PBS. In between games, someone could potentially buy all 8 of the Marksman's needed to start racking up PBS. Storyline-esque, though, it doesn't really fit, as you can't become an amazing gunslinger overnight. So, it would make sense based on character development to limit the buys between games to only 2 or 3 each. Again, just me thinking out loud.....I tend to be more focused on character development and storyline than skill hoarding and beef-uppery, so sorry if I offend anyone who isn't.)

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jazzman831
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by jazzman831 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:40 am

wormyxl wrote:None of your objections take into account the qualifying statement at the bottom of my post which adds that you can't reload (maybe "rack" or "cock" would have been better terms) while in melee with someone...

Second point: none of the options give you any immunity to effects. Option D simply allows you to ignore the interrupt of being in melee.
Fair, though the reason for that was because I didn't like the option of making PBS only usable once. Though, I did misinterpret the racking/reloading terminology, so now I understand better what you were getting at. That being said, when you combine it with my criticism of the one shot rule, I think my conclusion is still more or less the same:

Option A: This both greatly buffs every character (every mook gets one free shot in melee!!) and hurts gun-characters (every gunslinger gets one free shot in melee). This now forces melee characters (or anyone who might accidentally get into melee range) to buy tons of blocks/dodges just to get back to the relative level of safety they had before, knowing that it takes some skill to be shot in melee range.

Option B: This is a little better, but it's powerful enough that unless the cost is very high, every character who uses a gun is going to take this skill. It effectively just is a karma tax on any gun user. (If the cost is very high, then it's going to make PBS even less prevalent).

Option C: This will be useless with low buys (why expend bullets and karma for one or two damage when you can use a boffer for free for the same amount of damage or more?), and with 10 buys is exactly the same as A.

Option D: now that I understand you mean "rack", this option makes a lot more sense. That being said, I'm still against it for the reasons I'm against Option A (well, for half of the reason).

One other issue I thought about where this affects game balance is with bullet stun. Yeah, sure, as players get higher in level they are less likely to be stunned by bullets, but the more prevalent PBS is, the more prevalent the "auto-hit then step back 10 feet and take as many free shots I can get off in the next 30 seconds" tactic will be. For almost any character caught in that loop, it's an auto-down, which really sucks if literally every gun-wielding mook can do it with no karma spend (Options A and D).

I guess the fundamental question is: are we doing this because it's not "realistic enough" that you can't shoot in melee? Or are we doing this because of a game balance issue? It's kind of sounding like it's the former, and I don't think that that is a compelling enough reason to make a change, since the change has such a drastic effect on game balance and character building.

If the latter, I honestly don't see it as much of an issue, but as a compromise, I think we should do something like Option E, which is a bit of an amalgamation of options A, C, and D: Any character can use a point blank shot for 5 normal damage within 10ft (this represents that about half of your shots will hit in melee). Each buy of PBS allows you use your normal weapon damage once (in other words, it's a normal PBS per the current RAW). Blocks/Dodges work normally against each type of PBS, and no whining if your gun accidentally gets hit by a boffer while firing into melee :-p

I should also note that, while 10ft is a bit bigger than melee range, other systems have penalties for firing into melee. The d20 system, for instance, (D&D 3.x, d20 Modern, and others) not only does the attacker suffer a penalty to their attack chance (overcome by a one-time feat purchase), but it gives a defender a free attack whenever a ranged weapon is used in melee range, and it's an incredibly hard limitation to get around (in D&D there is exactly one advanced class that allows you to do it; I can't remember of the top of my head, but I believe in d20M there's also only one way to get there).
-Jebediah the Proud

wormyxl
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:57 am

@Ander
I'm more thinking similar to spell interruption (which I'm admittedly assuming is a thing) where getting hit prevents you from racking the next shot. This does mean that automatics are increadibly strong (since they don't rack every shot) but they are already a murder house anyways...

@Annalyse
I'm not super fond of a "chance to hit" mechanic, but making it so PBS is easy to defend against would be an easy way to balance it (aka the adding block to the list of skills that negate it)...

wormyxl
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by wormyxl » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:17 pm

@jazzman
I've been equating pbs to ignite... both can be available to everyone as one shots (enchanting into items) and both have a Stun effect on them. However I kind of like the option E you have there as long as the purchased skill is full what it is now (10 ballistic) given it is fairly easy to negate.

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Olive Wilson
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Point Blank Shot

Post by Olive Wilson » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:29 pm

This may be stupid but if the whole thing is not being realistic in the fact that you would be able to shoot people point blank but can't because of safety...Couldn't you just throw packets to rep the bullet at close range? I mean, this would give you the chance to defend yourself at point plank range with a "gun" but not have to physically shoot someone. Gives you the chance of actually hitting the target or not. Irl just because you're at point blank range doesn't always mean that you will hit the target especially when you're adrenaline is rushing and other factors...but there would be problems with this like people throwing packets when they don't have bullets left or not knowing how much you might actually have in your magazine.
It comes down to this: we can't shoot people close range because it is unsafe. Yes, it is unrealistic to have to buy this skill for something you could do irl but so many of the skills we have are already unrealistic and set there for safety reasons. I have a lot of buys of point blank. I would much prefer to spend that karma on other things but I am personally okay with how this has been set up. We do have doges for a reason and sometimes you've just got to haul ass out of combat to be able to use your gun.


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Last edited by Olive Wilson on Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Felix Birch
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by Felix Birch » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:42 pm

So, rarely do I ever see PBS used in an active melee situation. As an individual who plays a Soldier and primarily carries guns, I'm not going to waste my time to engage someone with PBS when they are quickly approaching with Melee. I'm going to haul my butt out of the way of that individual and provide myself a safe
distance to lay down a field of fire. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this discussion is. The skill itself has functioned wonderfully in-game in the variety of ways it has been used. Why change what isn't a problem?

Have you participated in-game, yet?

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:53 pm

Personally, I don't think there's any need to change the skill. I get that it's unrealistic, but like Olive said, there are so many skills that are already unrealistic for the reason of safety.

Bryan and I have played at least 5 games so far, I believe, and it's never seemed like an issue before. Changing the skill to appease realism is only going to make things more complicated in my mind. I don't like the idea of everyone having the ability to use PBS if they have a gun because I think my character would probably be a lot faster with my melee weapons than they are with their gun and, therefore, giving this skill to the ones who spend the karma (aka experience) on getting the skill is going to be more 'realistic' to storyline in my mind.

When it all comes down to it, PBS is a skill that a character gains with karma (again, experience). So, bottom line, you just have to get good. And that comes from playing the games and learning the intricacies of each skill first hand rather than interpretation of the rules.

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jazzman831
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by jazzman831 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:12 pm

wormyxl wrote:I've been equating pbs to ignite... both can be available to everyone as one shots (enchanting into items) and both have a Stun effect on them.
While somewhat similar in effect (kinda...), I don't think ignite is a fair comparison because ignite is a TON harder to come by than PBS, and unless you are a magician, it relies on specialized equipment to come about, which is unreliable to obtain at best (and unavailable to the average mook). Personally I've only had access to an ignite twice in 5-6 games, and one of the items (a talisman -- only usable by a few character classes) I ended up giving to someone else because I was so worried about it's rarity that I never found a situation "important enough" to use it.

Besides, even if ignite were more or less the same thing, I certainly wouldn't want to give everyone easier access to ignite (and I'm sure Annalyse would doubly agree with that statement :-p).

@Olive: if we decide that we need to be able to use guns in melee range, I love the idea of using packets. It's still basically an auto-hit, but you actually have to time it an aim instead of just saying "I used a skill".

@Felix: agreed; I think more often than not when PBS is used it's not because someone is wading into melee as much as someone is hoping to guarantee a hit, especially when combined with another skill like Headshot.

I will say, though, now that Blocks are "officially" able to counter PB's (even though some people, myself included, have been playing this way semi-officially for a couple games), it might make sense to lower the cost of PBS. Blocks cost between 2 (Adept) and 5 (Fixer/Magician), whereas BPS cost between 3 (Agent) and 8 (Adept/Magician). Granted, you can only use a block if you are holding a melee weapon, so not everyone will be using them, but it would definitely suck to have my 8-point skill (plus 25, if I combine it with Headshot) negated by a 2-point skill.
-Jebediah the Proud

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