Point Blank Shot

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Jay Belarpin
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Point Blank Shot

Post by Jay Belarpin » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:41 pm

Final decision:

No change
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

wormyxl
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by wormyxl » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:35 pm

So, before I get into this I'd like to know the reason for this skill to exist in the game? I assume it's because there is a rule preventing someone from shooting within a certain distance of a person for safty... but I feel like there could be more. When I get an answer to this I'll edit this post with a fully developed idea.

Thanks!

Edit:
Ok, so this skill exists simply for the saftey of others and their equipment. Because of this and because of how "easy" it is to do this this skill should either:

A) be removed as an active skill and make it a flat passive for everyone (aka when wielding a gun and within 10ft, you may shoot the ground and call damage)

B) leave it in, but it is a one time purchase skill that allows you to do it as much as you want

C) leave it in, but doing it does 1 damage for each purchase of PBS you have

D) have it be a passive like option A but still allow multiple purchases. Each purchase allows you one reload while under melee attack.

Note: in all of these options you can only shoot once and cannot rack another shot while in melee.
Last edited by wormyxl on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Plot
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by Plot » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:55 pm

It is unsafe to shoot folks with BBs at close range. Especially people who are or may be wielding melee weapons. Not to mention plastic -and even metal- airsoft toys tend to not hold up well when hit even accidentally by boffer combat.

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Olive Wilson
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by Olive Wilson » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:42 pm

I don't mind too much having to by this skill but I do understand why it's there for safety reason and why this skill is frustrating. There have been a few occasions where my character was trapped/stuck and had no way to defend herself because she ran out of point blanks and does not carry melee weapons. In reality, if the situation were to occur without the skill/safety need, she would be able to unload all her rounds at the bad guys but is unable to because of safety reasons. Pretty much means myself and anyone else in that type of situation are left for dead with no defense especially when they have plenty of ammo (it's understandable that if you run out of ammo and have no melee you're SOL).
I'm okay with whatever happens but if it is decided that the skill is removed or made a one time purchase skill, will players be reimbursed karma for what they spent on their point blanks?


.

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Ander
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by Ander » Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:24 pm

I know little to nothing about guns, real or fake, so I have little to contribute here, but I would just like to add that I have often wondered why you had to 'buy' Point Blank Shot when shooting someone close up doesn't require much in the way of additional "real world" skill.

Just to throw an alternative solution into the mix: We could leave as is, but add a "pointblank like" option that is available to everyone to do some standard amount of damage within 10ft. We can call it "Pistol Whip" :)

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jazzman831
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by jazzman831 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:41 am

Before I go through the options, I should state that Point Blank is a huge part of the balance of the game, and any changes should be thought through thoroughly before we make a change. One unintended side effect to making Point Blanks easier to access is that it greatly nullifies Flicker (and, frankly, melee combat in general). I only have one buy of it (ok, and Chi Mastery) and already one of my best tactics to take down a gun-wielding character is to flicker myself into melee range. Heck, in the last game I played I saved Annalyse from certain death or capture by simply running into melee. If every mook has infinite point blank shots, I might as well just run away anytime someone is shooting at me (and I don't even consider myself a melee-based character -- I have 0 buys of beatdown).

Secondly, don't forget that Point Blanks are an automatic hit. In real life if some guy is running at you faster than a speeding bullet (or heck, even at his top speed), swinging sword(s) at you, you probably won't get every single shot off accurately.

Option A: No no no no no no no! Now all I have to do is get in melee range and just call "10 ballistic" as fast as I can pull the trigger? No!

Option B: No, for the same reason!

Option C: This just means that anyone who wants to use PBS buys 10 ranks of it, and then see Option A or B.

Option D: There is no rule stopping you from reloading under melee combat as it is. I'm guessing you mean each purchase allows you to become immune to damage while reloading -- that just seems extremely overpowered and arbitrary. At best, I could see the argument for a skill called "Lightning Reload" or some such that makes you immune for 5 seconds while you reload -- because you don't want to give me all the time it takes to reload my two revolvers with the same karma buy it takes for a guy to slap in a new clip. The problem is, what class would this apply to? If it's supernaturally fast, then it would be the specialty (possibly exclusive specialty) of Adepts, who otherwise aren't that strong in gun skills. If it represents being humanly fast, well, even I can probably change out a clip in under 5 seconds and I've never even touched a real gun.

Allowing someone to only use one PBS in melee would, in my opinion, be much worse for gun-heavy characters. Using Olive's example, so now when she's in melee she knows she always gets one shot, but she now never has the opportunity to unload all of her PBS buys at once in an emergency.

IF Point Blank Shot needs to be fixed (and if that fix isn't "carry a melee weapon"), the only thing I would see as fair is to keep PBS as it is, but allow anyone to deal a small fixed amount of damage by expending a round at the ground. The damage can't be very high, or it will then again be more effective to just get close to someone and start shooting, since melee damage isn't guaranteed when using a boffer.

Lastly, while I don't know what the mechanics of it would be, I think it's reasonable to include some sort of pistol whip ability, whether it be a new skill or just an expansion of the combat rules.

PS: While I agree, it does massively suck to run out of uses of a skill (hence the reason I bought the 30-karma Chi Mastery skill at <100 karma, and a full 58% of my karma spend has gone towards that or Chi Mastery-renewable skills), the same logic could apply to, say, headshot, or disarm, or dirty fighting. There's no real "in game" reason why if I can do one of those things once I day, I can't do them more than once a day. We've just decided that certain skills are powerful and differentiating enough that they should be enumerated and limited by karma.
-Jebediah the Proud

Plot
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by Plot » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:52 am

jazzman831 wrote: Secondly, don't forget that Point Blanks are an automatic hit. In real life if some guy is running at you faster than a speeding bullet (or heck, even at his top speed), swinging sword(s) at you, you probably won't get every single shot off accurately.

Dodge and Elven Dodge work against point blank shot.

As Ian brought up, block probably should too. I am presently working -as in, I took a break from it to check out the forums- on updating the rulebook.

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jazzman831
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by jazzman831 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:08 am

Block totally makes sense. But that addresses avoiding the automatic damage, not the fact that the damage is automatic in the first place. (Plus, blocks aren't infinite, so they are only of so much good against an infinite-use skill). RAW, I'm totally ok with it, but I become less so the easier it is to use it.
-Jebediah the Proud

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:02 am

My two cents:

My interpretation of the Point Blank Skill is that (in character) the person has developed a jedi speed and accuracy that allows them to get through all of the melee activity and chaos going on, which is why you get an automatic hit. Each buy of it is basically a numerical level of endurance (I'm making this as much story-line/character based as I can to get my point across). For instance, Olive learned and honed her skills enough that her endurance level allows her to get off 15 point blank shots while in melee, but then she tires and can no longer maintain the speed and accuracy needed to get that 16th shot. Unless she further hones her skills (between game - as karma spends) to get that last one.

This is the same as in real world or with melee weapons: On my first couple hits, I'm probably going to hit you dead on, but as the battle wages further, I'm going to miss more than I hit as I tire. My interpretation of the PBS works the same way and, therefore, I think it should stay as it is.

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Ander
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Re: Point Blank Shot

Post by Ander » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:03 am

AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:My two cents:

My interpretation of the Point Blank Skill is that (in character) the person has developed a jedi speed and accuracy that allows them to get through all of the melee activity and chaos going on, which is why you get an automatic hit. Each buy of it is basically a numerical level of endurance (I'm making this as much story-line/character based as I can to get my point across). For instance, Olive learned and honed her skills enough that her endurance level allows her to get off 15 point blank shots while in melee, but then she tires and can no longer maintain the speed and accuracy needed to get that 16th shot. Unless she further hones her skills (between game - as karma spends) to get that last one.

This is the same as in real world or with melee weapons: On my first couple hits, I'm probably going to hit you dead on, but as the battle wages further, I'm going to miss more than I hit as I tire. My interpretation of the PBS works the same way and, therefore, I think it should stay as it is.
I agree with that in-game interpretation. However I do think there needs to be some sort of change, be it a difference in this skill or a rules modification or a new skill altogether, to account for the fact that anybody can fire a gun within 10 feet. Not everyone has the highly trained relfexes and whatnot to automatically hit, but anyone can pull the trigger and hope for the best exactly as they could at any other distance. Currently our rules do not account for this fact.

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