Weapon Standards

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Jay Belarpin
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Weapon Standards

Post by Jay Belarpin » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:22 am

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Final Decision Space
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Oh Glob yes.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

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Jay Belarpin
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Re: Weapon Standards

Post by Jay Belarpin » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:24 pm

It has already been established that we need to have codified weapon standards for our crafted weapons. This discussion is about what they should be.

The end goals of this list will be posted online and in the rulebook with the caveat “Follow these guidelines to ensure the highest likelihood of your weapon being allowed for use in the game. A weapon may follow all these guidelines and fail. In very rare cases, a weapon might not follow all guidelines and pass.”

I suggest some of the following items be on our standards.
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Melee
-All weapons must be covered with tape or fabric. Alternately, liquid latex or plastidip may be used. Acrylic, spray, or other paint directly on foam is unacceptable.
-Striking surfaces must have 5/8in closed cell foam padding (EVA, Blue camp pad, pipe insulation, etc.) All other surfaces must have courtesy padding if possible.
-Stabbing tips must be padded with 2 inches of open cell (couch cushion like) foam.
-Weapons may not flex more than 45 degrees when swung and must return to normal unassisted.
-Multi-pronged melee weapons must have a gap that is less than or equal to 2 inches for parallel prongs.
-All foam must be fully attached to the core and not move freely under.


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Thrown (Foam)
-All thrown weapons must be covered in a similar fashion as melee weapons.
-All thrown weapons must have no solid core or solid pieces inside

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Thrown (Packet)
No specific suggestions

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Arrow
I’ve not actually made an arrow before so I can’t speak to best practices, perhaps another may have more experience in this matter. **cough**Rob**cough**
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Nerf
Limits to modifications such as:
-May remove air restrictor
-May grease plunger
-Must use stock spring (or a limit to power of spring, stock is just easier)

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Shields
The rulebook has pretty solid rules that I’ve just transferred here.

-Shields may be made of any reasonably useable material, such as plywood, plastic, or solid foam.
-All edges on a shield should be covered in pipe-foam, or some other material that cushions accidental impacts.
-Do not make shields overly heavy, and do not put dangerous accessories onto shields, such as spikes or protruding metal grips on the outside.
-Shields can be up to the 3ft wide and 4ft tall.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

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Ander
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Re: Weapon Standards

Post by Ander » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:20 am

These requirements all sound entirely reasonable, and I think having specific standards codified is a great idea that will make prop construction much easier (believe me, this is becoming a wiki page the very moment there is a final decision). I do have two thoughts to add:

1.) Should there be limits on melee weapon length? Obviously we don't want to be too restrictive here, as there can be a pretty wide range. However specific types of weapons should perhaps have a minimum/maximum defined length. I'm thinking specifically of claw boffers here, but it may apply to other things as well.

2.) For Nerf weapons, instead of requiring stock spring, could we not just limit the FPS the same as we do for airsoft? (obiously not the same FPS. Ow.)

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jazzman831
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Re: Weapon Standards

Post by jazzman831 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:18 am

To Jay's post, I have no qualms with anything written. As Rob metioned on Facebook, latex or store-bought weapons which may otherwise be safe would not fall under the rules above. However, this can be covered with a simple "any weapon not made with these rules is allowed only under explicit GM approval."

As to Ian's questions... length is already codified in the rule book. I'm assuming we would be adding Jay's rules to what's already in the book, not substituting. There definitely should be min/max length rules, especially since size determines damage (in part).

For Nerf, I don't know if FPS is the best way to handle it, since for a given projectile the same FPS will have a different force. Plus I'm not sure how well the chrono works with Nerf darts (not that there aren't other ways to measure, of course). I think "no stronger than stock", while still fairly broad and open to potential abuse, is probably a fair standard. AFAIK, we haven't had problems with people putting monster springs into Nerf guns.
-Jebediah the Proud

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Ander
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Re: Weapon Standards

Post by Ander » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:07 am

I can in fact think of only one example of a really overpowered nerf gun at wastelands. It was at my very first event and if I recall correctly it was flagged prior to actually being used in game. Regardless, the benchmark for safety requirements should not be what has been a problem before, but what could be a problem in the future.

As for the chrono'ing issue, I actually have no idea what kind of chronograph we currently have, but I know there are chronographs that can be used for nerf.

You are correct that length is already addressed in the rulebook. I thought I remembered seeing it previously, but when I checked last night I didn't see it. I must have just overlooked it.

And finally, responding to Robs comment on Facebook, I would have to agree with not allowing home-built arrows. I have seen someone sent to the hospital when a foam arrowhead came off mid-flight. Unfortunately there really is just no way to ensure safety with them.

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Jay Belarpin
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Re: Weapon Standards

Post by Jay Belarpin » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:44 pm

Since we keep discussing Rob's FB post I'm gonna put it here for reference down the line
My internet access is going to be spotty at best from 10am this morning through next Monday; I'm in a part of the country that has only dial-up. As such, I won't be commenting on topics except to point out that I have a *lot* of issues with basically coping weapon standards from NERO (which is what's proposed in that thread). They disallow the use of latex weapons, for one (latex's don't have 5/8ths foam and a huge proportion of them will flex 45+ degrees under some circumstances).

And since I was tagged specifically in the discussion, do NOT allow homebuilt arrows, full stop. IDV larp arrows are what you want to go with - the issues with homebuilt arrows are legion and their safety vis a vis breakdown mid-game while hitting someone are flat-out impossible to preemptively check for.

Finally, yes, limit nerf weapons by fps. Do note, however, that the current generation of Nerf weapons is considered safe for 12-year olds, and yet launch balls at ~70mph (~100 fps). Link attached below.
http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/15/11002 ... t-toy-fair
I'll address comments (both Rob's and in this thread) by category:

Melee:
-Yes, there are rules for weapon length and these are intended to supplement, not replace, those.
-These rules only explicitly apply for player made weapons, latex weapons will remain on a case by case basis.
-I've not read NERO's weapon standards, but did base some of mine on other games which probably drew on NEROs. I would like to know any other issues besides latex weapons there are with NERO's rules (this one is mostly directed at Rob's comment, but others are welcome to also voice concerns)


Arrows:
The biggest reason I've had no experience is lack of confidence in my ability to build an arrow that maintains its safety over a long time. Hence my deferring to others opinions. It sounds like the majority of opinions drawing on experience with homemade arrows say no to home made. I'm sure its possible, and obviously we can make exceptions, but that would be on N8 to make that call.

Do we want to limit it solely to IDV's arrows or do we want to allow other companies as well? I know IDV is the biggest game in town and probably what I'd personally buy, but I have some reservations with exclusively requiring one manufacturers arrows.

NERF:
It is entirely possible limit our NERF guns by FPS. To do this we would need to get a new chronograph that would be able to handle all of the dart types (around $70) and figure out an FPS limit PER dart type.

Our airsoft guns are limited to .58 joules. Taking that same limit and applying it to the Elite type darts Nerf switched to in 2012 would cap us at around 100 fps for that dart type. We can apply that same formula for each dart type (https://www.blasterhub.com/darts-comparison/). It doesn't have to be .58 joules since an airsoft pellet is unequal to a nerf dart but thats a decent starting point.

The joule limit breaks down with Mega-Darts though, since they would be around 70 fps and a centurion apparently beats that out of the box. So we'd have to find a new limit for that. We could do that, figure out the limits we want for each dart type and let people mod to their hearts content as long as they stay under the limit.

Personally, I don't think people really NEED to mod nerf guns. I'd rather limit the mods to cosmetic improvements and a few basic things that can extend the life of the gun like removing air restrictors, and otherwise require the guns to be stock. Otherwise, a player can spend a lot of time and money to have an edge against NPCs with stock guns. Which sounds decidedly 'pay-to-win' to me.

Finally, the NERF Rival line of weapons is (unless n8 changed his mind) not going to be allowed at Wastelands, primarily due to MOOP.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

Plot
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Re: Weapon Standards

Post by Plot » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:45 pm

Jay Belarpin wrote: Finally, the NERF Rival line of weapons is (unless n8 changed his mind) not going to be allowed at Wastelands, primarily due to MOOP.
Correct

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Ander
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Re: Weapon Standards

Post by Ander » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:16 am

Jay Belarpin wrote: These rules only explicitly apply for player made weapons
This is an important point to clarify. I had assumed that this would appy to all melee weaponry regardless.
Jay Belarpin wrote: Do we want to limit it solely to IDV's arrows or do we want to allow other companies as well? I know IDV is the biggest game in town and probably what I'd personally buy, but I have some reservations with exclusively requiring one manufacturers arrows.
I don't much like the idea of limiting to a single manufacturer either. We could either keep a list of "approved" arrow manufacturers, or we could attempt to quantify what it is about IDV that makes them preferable and allow any manufacturer that meets those same standards.
Jay Belarpin wrote: It is entirely possible limit our NERF guns by FPS. To do this we would need to get a new chronograph that would be able to handle all of the dart types (around $70) and figure out an FPS limit PER dart type.
I suspected we might need a new one. I'll be happy to chip in if we decide to go that route.
Jay Belarpin wrote: Our airsoft guns are limited to .58 joules. Blah blah blah math math joules numbers math.
Yup, that all sounds... good?
Jay Belarpin wrote: Personally, I don't think people really NEED to mod nerf guns. I'd rather limit the mods to cosmetic improvements and a few basic things that can extend the life of the gun like removing air restrictors, and otherwise require the guns to be stock.
I wouldn't really mind this, I'm not that in to nerf modding. But by the same token, someone might want to have a particular "look" to their gun for character reasons, and the most similar to what they are going for could be one of those... shall we say, less-than-entirely-reliable nerf gun lines? I don't think we should limit people from bringing that gun up to par with better quality nerf offerings.

So combining the two ideas: what if we limit the types of mods, not just to cosmetic, but to "functional" mods that don't change the "damage". For example mods that reduce jamming or allow different or bigger clip sizes but that wouldn't change the fps of the gun?

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jazzman831
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Re: Weapon Standards

Post by jazzman831 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:31 am

I feel I got us sidetracked by my comment about a nerf chronomoter. My point was not that they don't exist, but that it shouldn't be necessary. With all the variation and variables it gets too complicated to try and put such a specific standard on something that very few people will ever use and even fewer people will find a way to abuse, let alone actually attempt to abuse. I think it would be more effective to limit the types of mods allowed, as Ian and John have mentioned.

As for arrows, I don't really know the market. But I don't see an issue with allowing any bona-fide manufacturer. I.e. a company which can be sued if the arrow fails (not just some dude with a website). I would think the threat of a potential lawsuit is high enough in this day and age that any legitimate manufacturer is going to put out a safe product. If that requires listing specific manufacturers, that's fine by me.
-Jebediah the Proud

Jefferson Hendrix
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Re: Weapon Standards

Post by Jefferson Hendrix » Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:17 pm

I'm a fan of cloth on all striking surfaces.

Duct tape+cold=owie
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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