Proactive MOOP Prevention

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:08 am

I think it's a good idea to have an individual program for reward if MOOP is returned, but not a team reward. Like what Bryan said, I don't want to be responsible for the whole group missing out.

Being a geologist, Environmental Management is very important to me, which is why I helped Morgan and Aidan search for over 20 minutes for one lost packet. Working our hardest to make sure everything gets picked up is always a 'yes' in my book. Personally, I'll spend as much time as need be to find lost packets and darts. And if we recruit people immediately after a battle to search for those that are lost, that time gets decreased with more eyes.

Rob, I didn't know you'd lost our darts, though we would have helped search for them. If anything, a reward for the return of darts and packets may get more people involved in searching for lost packets and darts, which will probably mean more are returned. I say this because many times I've said, "Hey, I lost a packet." Only to watch the entire group walk back to the shelter without glancing back at me. If someone loses their ammo, probably a good idea and decent act to turn around and help them find it. So, maybe the group reward would work in that sense.

Granted, there are always going to be those that get away, but having a nonchalant attitude of "Oh well, I tried." after 5 minutes is not ok with me.

Though, if we are having such an issue with lost darts and packets, we could always move any fighting onto open ground? (I know there's going to be severe kickback for that statement)

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Swordguy
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Swordguy » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:24 am

AnnalyseTaenarys wrote:Granted, there are always going to be those that get away, but having a nonchalant attitude of "Oh well, I tried." after 5 minutes is not ok with me.
See, I'm OK with this view. It's just not consistent with what I'm reading upthread.

What my concern here is, is that "Zero Trace" means a very specific thing. It means that it is never acceptable to have "those that get away", and that one should have to search for as long as necessary - including the remainder of the game - for a single theoretical lost item. "Zero Trace" is how the bomb bag search rules were explained to me, so when I'm seeing the bomb bag rules used as an example of what we should be doing, well, that leads logically into searching for literal hours for a single lost dart.

Let me be clear: I have no issue with rewards for doing this. My issue is that it shouldn't be run exactly like bomb bags for reasons of - frankly - sanity. It can be run in a similar manner to bomb bags, although I think having to keep an exact count of amount and the number of types of OOG ammo you're currently carrying at any given moment is going to suck a lot worse than people are giving credit for.

Side note: why the emphasis on packet cleanup? They're explicitly supposed to be made of organic fabrics and filled with birdseed so that they can safety biodegrade if lost. I understand people just not having a ton of packets available and so wanting them back...but they're literally made to disappear into the environment. So what's the problem if we lose 1-2 per event? It's like leaving an apple core in the woods; yeah it's your trash, but it's not exactly harmful in any way.

.........................

EDIT: You *did* help look for the darts. They were lost during the final combat mod of the November event. You guys came back to help my find my pistol and we were looking for the green darts as well. We found the pistol after an extra 10 minutes of looking around the area (after the 15-20 minute cleanup of the area that everybody did), and found none of the darts. All of which rather illustrates my point, actually. 10 people looking around the area for 15-20 minutes, and 3 people looking for 10 minutes, and not one dart was found. I consider approximately 3 man-hours of cleanup in a fairly small and contained outdoor area a fair bit more than a "reasonable" effort.
Mission, Method, Morals...all negotiable.

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Jay Belarpin
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Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Jay Belarpin » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:52 am

Between the last few replies I've seen mentions of exactly what I'm trying to encourage with this proposal. Everybody spending a reasonable amount of time to ensure that we get our packets and darts picked up, even other players. I would much rather reward that than punish people for not, though I can see how one would take my statement about grenades to mean otherwise.


The fact of the matter is that site masters don't care about the fact that we're larping, they care about impact. We can fire 1000 darts and recover 999 but if they find the 1 we missed they don't care that we had a 99.9% recovery rate. They care that we left “trash”. A reasonable site master will be understanding but we should absolutely make every reasonable effort to not give them a reason just in case they aren't.


From a site masters perspective, spell packets are the same as darts because they haven't degraded by Sunday night or Monday morning and are fairly noticeable.


There still exists, though thankfully less pervasively, an attitude among some larpers that they have no responsibility to police their stuff. I've heard all sorts of excuses like “it breaks my immersion” or “I'm not paying to clean up after myself”. This attitude is toxic to the hobby and has appeared at our games in the past in the form of a player ripping spent bomb bags off their grenades and throwing them on the ground, then getting shitty when called on it. You can probably guess what that led to.


Now I'm pushing for a policy to encourage players to be better about their stuff, not because our current players act like that, but because we will possibly have players that will. Then end result, if we go the reward route, is that players who are already good get a bonus to keep doing what they are doing, players that aren't now have a reason to be good, and we take another step to ensure that we enjoy continued use of our sites.



.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

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jazzman831
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by jazzman831 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:22 am

There's been a lot of talk about "reasonable effort", but while we can generally define what's unreasonable (spending 1 minute looking for a neon green dart isn't enough; spending an hour looking for a camouflaged spell packet is too much), everyone probably has their own, differing standard for what is reasonable. This is why I like the idea of putting pen to paper and writing down how many things you started with and how many things you ended with. If one person is consistently losing half their stuff while other people are only losing 1-2%, then either that person isn't being "reasonable" with their searching, or they need to reevaluate what they are doing to make them lose so much more than everyone else. (This is not to say that anyone who loses a lot of stuff is automatically doing something wrong, or not searching hard enough, but you can't solve a problem until you can define it.)

I think it might not also be a bad idea to do a "MOOP Sweep" during cleanup (probably after everyone counts their own items). Everyone spends 10 minutes walking the play areas looking for any form of trash, whether we left it or it was there before us. I don't think it needs to be more than 10 minutes, since we should also be cleaning up along the way, and this should be the one time that the salvage-for-MOOP rule applies to stuff we've left behind. Since the end of the game tends to be where people need to bug out for one reason or another, this probably shouldn't be mandatory, but then there should be a reward for searching even if you don't find anything.
-Jebediah the Proud

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Ander
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Ander » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:15 pm

jazzman831 wrote:I think it might not also be a bad idea to do a "MOOP Sweep" during cleanup (probably after everyone counts their own items). Everyone spends 10 minutes walking the play areas looking for any form of trash, whether we left it or it was there before us.
We used to do this much more consistently. I don't recall it being done with the same regularity recently but there are usually at least a couple people who go out and do this at each event. Some sort of incentive for joining in on the "Sweep" might be worth considering.

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AnnalyseTaenarys
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by AnnalyseTaenarys » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:03 am

jazzman831 wrote:I think it might not also be a bad idea to do a "MOOP Sweep" during cleanup (probably after everyone counts their own items). Everyone spends 10 minutes walking the play areas looking for any form of trash, whether we left it or it was there before us. I don't think it needs to be more than 10 minutes, since we should also be cleaning up along the way, and this should be the one time that the salvage-for-MOOP rule applies to stuff we've left behind. Since the end of the game tends to be where people need to bug out for one reason or another, this probably shouldn't be mandatory, but then there should be a reward for searching even if you don't find anything.

AGREE 100%! And now I need to say no more. :P

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