Proactive MOOP Prevention

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Jay Belarpin
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Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Jay Belarpin » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:03 pm

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THIS SPACE RESERVED FOR FINAL DECISIONS
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Our exiting practices are doing marvelously but people made good points and I like where they were going with them. Stance will be revised.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

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Jay Belarpin
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Jay Belarpin » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:05 pm

Matter out of Place (MOOP) is an issue we all deal with. As much as we try, we occasionally lose packets and nerf darts.
To better prevent leaving items behind, what are people’s opinions on “signing out” their spell packets and nerf darts when they check in and then “signing them in” when they check out? Should we reward players (and NPCs) that successfully return all of their projectiles? Should we reward the whole group if everybody does?

We did something similar at Capes and it seemed to encourage folks keeping track of exactly where their shots went, as well as a communal effort to ensure every item was picked up.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that we presently do this with bomb-bags with a punishment component instead of a reward component. I'd say all should be consistent however implemented.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

Plot
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Plot » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:13 pm

I like this.

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jazzman831
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by jazzman831 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:56 pm

First I would ask, has this been an actual problem, or is it just a possible problem?

There probably is an advantage to knowing how many "losables" you start with at the beginning of the game. I know exactly how many spell packets and shell cartridges I've lost (1 and 1) because I know how many I started with (16 and 24). Now that I bought a butt ton more cartridges, I'm probably more likely to lose one without ever knowing I need to look for it.

But I don't know if we need to go so far as to have a sign in/sign out system. I don't think I would have found those items if a reward/penalty was on the line; I just plain couldn't find them. I know Aiden lost one of his spell packets two games ago and 4 or 5 people looked everywhere for it and it just couldn't be found. I wouldn't want to be the one that caused the whole group to lose a reward because I accidentally threw a packet into the woods.

...

Ok, now that I think of it a bit, I like the idea of giving a reward for writing down a count of your losables at the beginning and the end of the game. In other words, forcing you to do a quick count so you'll know if you're missing something. I don't like making it mandatory, and I don't like a punishment for losing things (unless it's obvious you didn't bother to look).
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Ander
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Ander » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:53 pm

I like this idea. I concur with jazzman that it should be neither a punishment nor mandatory, but certainly a reward for being a conscientious larp-er is a fantastic idea. The carrot is usually better than the stick.

We have a documented history of being relatively responsible as far as larps go (hence our continued use of the john beltz retreat site) and we have precedent for rewarding out of game responsibility with in game rewards (i.e. Salvage for picking up pre-existing MOOP). So taking this a step further and implementing a similar mechanic to reward diligence regarding our own potential MOOP seems like a logical extension of our current efforts.

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Swordguy
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Swordguy » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:00 am

Just as a head's-up: asking somebody to pick up the tan/flesh-colored nerf darts during autumn is the equivalent of asking Cinderella to pick all the lentils from the ash. It's cruel and without magical assistance, it ain't ever gonna happen.

Bomb bags are one thing, because they're bright shiny silver and easily spotted. Nerf darts - even visible blue ones - go absolutely everywhere and into very tiny places (like between layers of leaves on the ground), and can fly for startling distances.**

The "sign-out/must recover" idea works fine for easily-spotted bomb bags. This is a TERRIBLE idea for almost everything else.

And spell-packets are explicitly supposed to be biodegradable and filled with birdseed ANYWAY, just so that when (not if) they get lost they don't screw with the environment. Replacement darts and packets on the part of plot should be part of the operating cost of a game, and they're part of the playing costs on behalf of the player.

I understand wanting to protect the environment, but this is a solution to a problem that barely exists in the first place and is utterly impractical to actually implement.



**NERO Cincinnati had a mod once that required 10 automatic Nerf guns and 150 rounds per gun. I coordinated getting it all together from various chapter members. The mod took place inside one of the castles at Cub World; a totally closed environment. After the mod when the nerf darts were recovered, each player got back about ~130 darts out of the 150 darts they'd contributed. In a CLOSED environment, we'd lost almost 200 darts completely. Tracking darts should not be a thing.
Mission, Method, Morals...all negotiable.

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Jay Belarpin
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Jay Belarpin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:17 pm

Moop is not currently a major issue however all of our event sites are very strict about it. If we slip up too much, we can potentially lose access to these sites. This is the big motivator for my suggestion, not cost of darts or even environmental impact (though likely the reason a site would ban us). Because of this, it is not unfair to expect people to make a best effort and provide more motivation to do so. After all, it only takes one dick to fuck us all.

For the record, I've personally gone so far as to change out my spackys and darts for new colors by season, though I can understand why some may not be willing or able to make such an investment. When possible, one should look into this even if it means borrowing from the kit when necessary.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

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Swordguy
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Swordguy » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:05 pm

Jay Belarpin wrote:For the record, I've personally gone so far as to change out my spackys and darts for new colors by season,
I get you, but as a counterpoint, during the November event I forgot my darts. I borrowed 5 glow-green darts from Morgan for my black powder pistol. I had 1 remaining by the end of the event; the others were lost and couldn't be found even after the daylight searches of mod areas we did.

That's neon green, glows in the dark, darts, on a brown and red environmental backdrop. It's hard to get more visible unless we start putting the little rotating yellow caution lights on each dart.

If a camp is going to kick us over some leftover nerf darts 40 feet off a trail stuck in a thornbush or 10 feet up a pine tree, or a spell packet that'll naturally rot and then feed the animals, then we need to switch over to Paper-Rock-Scissors combat so there's no wastage, or we need to find different sites. We're already doing a TON to minimize environmental impact, but the point of these games is to come play, not clean somebody else's camp.
Mission, Method, Morals...all negotiable.

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Jay Belarpin
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Jay Belarpin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:42 pm

Swordguy wrote: I get you, but as a counterpoint, during the November event I forgot my darts. I borrowed 5 glow-green darts from Morgan for my black powder pistol. I had 1 remaining by the end of the event; the others were lost and couldn't be found even after the daylight searches of mod areas we did.

That's neon green, glows in the dark, darts, on a brown and red environmental backdrop. It's hard to get more visible unless we start putting the little rotating yellow caution lights on each dart.
I get you, but in my anecdote over here I have two players that managed to use this gun
https://www.amazon.com/Nerf-A0092-Vorte ... CQN4NKCXDR
and lose 3 discs between them over the course of 12 events over two years. That is over all sorts of environmental conditions with the most wildly flying nerf projectiles I've ever seen at a larp. They generally had to reload at least once mid fight too, so its not like they were only firing a disc or two.

Swordguy wrote: If a camp is going to kick us over some leftover nerf darts 40 feet off a trail stuck in a thornbush or 10 feet up a pine tree, or a spell packet that'll naturally rot and then feed the animals, then we need to switch over to Paper-Rock-Scissors combat so there's no wastage, or we need to find different sites.
We're a small game that uses airsoft, the sites we can use are fairly limited. We can't really be too picky about the attitudes of the camps that do let us play or ignore their wishes because we find it inconvenient.

If you have a site that will let us run without care of leaving darts/packets behind within our price range that is also convenient to the player base and gamestaff then by all means show it to us.
We're already doing a TON to minimize environmental impact, but the point of these games is to come play, not clean somebody else's camp.
SERIOUSLY? In what universe is it not our responsibility to clean up the mess WE make? This isn't us getting yelled at because the last group trashed the place and we didn't clean it up, this is the site owners/managers finding our stuff because we didn't police our physreps.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

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Swordguy
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Re: Proactive MOOP Prevention

Post by Swordguy » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:49 am

Jay Belarpin wrote:SERIOUSLY? In what universe is it not our responsibility to clean up the mess WE make?
There's a level of nuance here between, "we don't have the responsibility to clean everything at all" and, "everyone is be OK with spending 6 hours looking for 1 missing dart". You damn well know it, you damn well know my position, and you're deliberately ignoring it to make a rhetorical point. Cut the reducto ad absurdum crap.

How many hours worth of paid gaming time are you willing to sacrifice to find two missing nerf darts after an autumn combat mod? If camps are demanding actual, honest-to-god ZERO trace camping, then your answer should be, "all of the hours necessary, which can include all of the hours remaining on site."

And as a customer of this game, that answer is unacceptable. When I rent an apartment, it's understood that I'm going to do my reasonable best to keep the apartment clean, but the landlord will also take responsibility for a final cleaning after I leave before renting the apartment to a new person. A campsite is the same way: we are paying to use the camp, and it is our responsibility to make a reasonable effort to clean up after ourselves. Let me repeat that since it's clearly necessary to do so. A REASONABLE EFFORT. However, part of what we're paying for is the understanding that the campmaster is going to occasionally have to bend over and pick up one or two leftover items of the literally hundreds we're spewing across the site.

I've done literal zero trace camping before. Actual, literal, zero trace camping after our events is absolutely unreasonable to achieve. I will happily - HAPPILY - spend 15-20 minutes after each combat mod combing the area to clean up. You bloody well know I clean up after myself and others at events. I flat-out will not spend the hours required to completely guarantee a zero trace policy with a 0% failure rate.

If this honestly is that big of a problem, then you should be arguing to ban all non-biodegradable projectiles before you even consider committing us to literal zero trace camping.
Last edited by Swordguy on Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mission, Method, Morals...all negotiable.

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