In-Game Effort

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Jay Belarpin
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In-Game Effort

Post by Jay Belarpin » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:03 pm

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Final Decision Space
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Wheeee..... In game effort has never worked how it was intended. So, we're tossing it out but keeping the baby. Effort will be spent on these two recipe types @ crafting and will be given tags that last for 1 year (except Fixers which lsst 2 years). They may apply those item cards respectively.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

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Ander
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Re: In-Game Effort

Post by Ander » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:43 pm

Pre-note: I'm sure that there are other examples of what I am about to describe, but all of my experience with it is in Enchanting/Warding so that is what I will be using as examples. Please feel free to chime in with other examples.

Alrighty, here goes.

There are certain recipes in the game (i.e. jury-rigged items) which require the expenditure of Effort during the game, rather than before. Ward enhancements are the prime example of this that I am familiar with. Given the push toward getting all the crafting completed prior to game-on, largely to reduce the unnecessary burden on the game staff at dinner, it doesn't make much sense to have an arbitrary effort expenditure that not only isn't handleable before game but isn't even at a defined time during the game. Additionally, the problem of the player needing to predict how much effort they might want to save for such skills needlessly adds complexity. I can think of three ways this could potentially be handled better:

Option A: Unique craft-able items representing this effort expenditure; i.e. a craft-able "provisional peace ward enhancement" item tag that one could simply add onto a ward at some point in the future.

Option B: Additional material cost to replace the effort; i.e. expend an additional "ritual supplies" or "force/focus components" etc. for each enhancement you are adding.

Option C: A separate "Effort-like" skill pool for this purpose; i.e. A certain number of "Warding points" for each level of Warding which would refresh at dinner like other in-game limited use skills.

Option Z-and-a-half: Replace Effort expenditure with Focus expenditure. (edit: added from later in the thread)

Personally, I'm partial to Option B. But any of them would be a perfectly acceptable way to handle it and would be a marked improvement both mechanically and story-wise (as I tend to think of crafting effort as representing what the character did in the gap between games).

Prefer one option over the others? Want it to remain as is? Have an even better alternative than these? Don't have an opinion but are just bored and lonely? All good options!

Aaaaaaaaaand go.
Last edited by Ander on Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jefferson Hendrix
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Re: In-Game Effort

Post by Jefferson Hendrix » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:49 pm

Remove those recipes from the game? ^_-
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Ander
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Re: In-Game Effort

Post by Ander » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:08 pm

Jefferson Hendrix wrote:Remove those recipes from the game? ^_-
*smack* No! Bad Neight! Go to your room!

Joking aside, one of the possibilities, namely "Option C", could potentially be implemented by simply separating Warding from Enchantment entirely. Thus removing the "recipes" by just making them standalone skills. Not my favorite of the options, but possible.

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jazzman831
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Re: In-Game Effort

Post by jazzman831 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:43 am

Disclaimer: I've never played a crafter/warder so I haven't personally experienced the issue at hand. Ignore my comments if they don't actually apply.

That being said, I think that the two types of in-game effort (warding/jury-rigging) are distinct enough to be handled separately.

Warding: to me, warding doesn't "feel" analogous to the other crafting skills. You aren't sitting at a workbench assembling materials together to result in a physical, usable product. Given that, I think that Option A makes the most sense to me. You are using your "I create stuff!" skill to create a magical whatsit that gives extra juice to wards. It will make ward enhancements consumables, though, which slightly changes the economics of the game (now a wizard could theoretically buy all of his warding enhancements and spend his enchantment effort on making other things). This could be gotten around by saying that the magical signatures are such that a wizard can only use his own ward enhancement items.

Option B is not much different than A, assuming that the ritual supply costs are done correctly. It has the same economy problems I listed above.

Option C is interesting, but I think it might add more complexity than is necessary. I would think if deemed appropriate, it would make the most sense to turn warding into a "levelled" skill instead of an all or nothing. The first rank gets you access, and the total number of ranks gives you your "effort". If we went this way, we would have to make sure that the freed up enchanting effort doesn't throw off other things (presumably, enchanting was designed assuming you are only going to spend x% on enchanting and reserving 1-x% for warding).

Conclusion: changing warding enhancements from a recipe to an item (whether specific or generalized through ritual supply requirements) probably makes the most sense and has the least ripple effect.

Jury Rigging: this is basically gambling some of your effort. The potential payout is you'll have the exact item you need, when you need it, but the risk is that you won't be short an item, and you lose the effort. When I first read the rulebook I liked this aspect of crafting, but I don't know that I've ever seen it used. I don't know if crafters don't have any effort left over, if they don't want to take the risk, or if they don't have the opportunity to use their effort during games. My guess is it's a little bit of all three. Question: does the 1.5x effort multiplier apply to effort saved for jury-rigging? I think it should, or there's really no reason to save effort in the hopes of creating an item in the field.

Option A and B don't have analogs to jury-rigging, because they essentially amount to "making an item", which is what we are trying to avoid. Option C basically describes how jury-rigging works anyway.

I will say that there is an Option D, which is to allow other uses for "saved" effort, which amount to a more custom form of jury-rigging. But this is the idea that Tashia proposed for discussion, so I'll save fleshing it out for that thread.

Conclusion: Unless someone can weigh in on the reason jury-rigging is rarely used, I don't have any suggested changes at this time.
-Jebediah the Proud

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Jay Belarpin
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Re: In-Game Effort

Post by Jay Belarpin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:56 pm

So the jury-rigging debate had raged for years on our old forums. Last year was the first year we didn't have it as a major topic, in part because all the big crafters weren't involved last year.

Put simply, jury-rigging never gets used because it is tremendously, horrendously, inefficient. Between having to save enough effort to make the item, having to have the components on hand, and losing the item at the end of the day, it just isn't worth it to do that. Any item you'd likely be able to jury rig is easier and more efficient to have ready just in case.

The common suggestion from previous discussions was a separate jury rigging pool and items you can make directly from salvage. Nothing really ever materialized each time but we could dig up and implement one of the past suggestions.

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Warding has a similar issue. At a 10 (or more for other classes) karma skill you get to spend 1 ritual supply (40 allins or 4 effort and 4 salvage) per day to create a barrier that spells can't pass and spirits can't cross... unless the building is destroyed, you are forced to leave, it has the ability to tear down the ward, etc...

To get more out of this, you need the enchanting skill to get enhancements. The most common of these enhancements is "Provisional Peace" which for another 5 effort and 4 salvage (3 effort + 2 focus components) that you have to use in-game. So just like jury-rigging, you have to guess how much effort you'll want to hold onto and there's no roll-over, so guess right and hope that plot doesn't have you constantly moving or something eating all your wards.


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Of the proposed solutions, I like C the most. It works best if we want to maintain some sort of parity between jury-rigging and warding.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

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Ander
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Re: In-Game Effort

Post by Ander » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:33 am

I have another possibility to add to the list for warding specifically. I don't think it's the best option available, but at least worth adding into the discussion:

Option Z-and-a-half: Replace Effort expenditure with Focus expenditure.

Given that warding is a Magician exclusive skill anyway, it's wouldn't be a huge leap to make it utilize magic in the same manner as casting a spell. This would admittedly be replacing a non-renewable skill (effort) with a renewable one (focus), but it doesn't seem to me that this would make that big of a difference to game balance. You would still be limited by needing the physical components as well.

It would also make sense from a story perspective in that a magician may not be able to cast spells at full power immediately after pouring their energies into essentially enchanting a building.

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jazzman831
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Re: In-Game Effort

Post by jazzman831 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:39 am

Ooooh, I don't know how that works balance-wise (doesn't seem TOO terrible, but it might need to have a lot higher focus cost than it had enchanting cost to make up the difference), but I really like it flavor-wise.
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Ander
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Re: In-Game Effort

Post by Ander » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:41 pm

jazzman831 wrote:Ooooh, I don't know how that works balance-wise (doesn't seem TOO terrible, but it might need to have a lot higher focus cost than it had enchanting cost to make up the difference), but I really like it flavor-wise.
Agreed, the focus cost should be higher than the effort cost. Not incredibly high, as we don't want it to become a barrier to entry for the Warding skill, but I don't think this would be an issue given that warding itself does not require any Effort as it is. Only ward enhancements.

wormyxl
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Re: In-Game Effort

Post by wormyxl » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:21 pm

I'm most in favor of havibg skills that use tagged resources with no real set limit on uses. You make a temporary tag and then spend the resources. You police this by having crafters do paperwork and turn it in a crafting box along with the bits used to craft them. You can audit players if you think something is up or check every event if you want 100% coverage. If this is something that would require a new thread I would like to discuss it...

Restricting to options here, I would vote for something that involves as little work for staff while at the game... preferably something that doesnt require more karma expenditures.

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