Paying Game fee for bonuses while NPCing/Not Attending

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jazzman831
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Re: Paying Game fee for bonuses while NPCing/Not Attending

Post by jazzman831 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:06 am

Right, my point being that pay-for-karma has an even benefit whereas pay-for-logistics varies wildly.
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Ander
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Re: Paying Game fee for bonuses while NPCing/Not Attending

Post by Ander » Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:17 am

Plot wrote:Non-crafters*
Well, aside from crafting relate skills there's also acquire, funding, connections and follow the money.
jazzman831 wrote:Right, my point being that pay-for-karma has an even benefit whereas pay-for-logistics varies wildly.
It just seems to me that if you are paying the full game fee you should get the full benefit. True, it wouldn't benefit all characters evenly, but in either case each person would have to choose if it's worth it to them. I guess I just don't see the necessity of something optional being evenly beneficial. That's where the choice part comes in.

Alternatively, if "choose between logistics/karma" option is the route we want to go, then perhaps it should be a partial game fee. i.e. half fee for karma, half fee for logistics, full fee for both?

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jazzman831
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Re: Paying Game fee for bonuses while NPCing/Not Attending

Post by jazzman831 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:29 am

Ander wrote:It just seems to me that if you are paying the full game fee you should get the full benefit.
In my mind "full game benefit" can't be obtained without actually playing the game. I have no ability to earn money, obtain items, or gain knowledge in a logistics period, because I spent my karma on things that allow me to do all that in game (by being able to survive and defeat enemies who are carrying loot). If you get the opportunity to get pay money to get more benefit out of your character than I can, that's fundamentally unfair. We've already almost unilaterally shot down the idea of pay for play schemes for this very reason.
Ander wrote:True, it wouldn't benefit all characters evenly, but in either case each person would have to choose if it's worth it to them. I guess I just don't see the necessity of something optional being evenly beneficial. That's where the choice part comes in.
Except, I can only choose for myself. So my option becomes a choice between falling really behind other players, or taking a deal that keeps me less behind.
Ander wrote:Alternatively, if "choose between logistics/karma" option is the route we want to go, then perhaps it should be a partial game fee. i.e. half fee for karma, half fee for logistics, full fee for both?
The obvious problem with that is for non-logistics types you now have the option of paying a full game fee and risk the death of your character or paying half a game fee for the same amount of karma worth no risk. Of course you still suffer from the "full game benefit" problem cited above, but I think we'd run into problems selling karma at below market value.

That does make me think, though. Are we going to allow people with multiple characters take advantage of this for both characters? In other words, if you play one character can you pay double to earn karma for your alt?
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Swordguy
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Re: Paying Game fee for bonuses while NPCing/Not Attending

Post by Swordguy » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:47 pm

The only thing I have to add is on the "money for karma" discussion, and it's a copy-paste of what I said last time:

I'm 100% fine with money->karma UP TO ~100 KARMA ON YOUR CHARACTER SHEET. That is, once your PC has hit 100 karma, you can't buy any more. Go play events if you want more karma. Why 100 karma? 100 Karma seems to be the "break point" where a LOT of the character concepts I've poked around at really come into their own. If a person wants to spend $60 up-front to bypass the 8.5 game-days it will take to get from 40-100 karma (@ 7/game day), then I have no issue with that. This becomes ESPECIALLY attractive for veteran players who want to start secondary PCs, and to be totally honest, it's better to have money available in your LARP's war chest, rather than be strictly limited to donations.

Beyond 100 karma, though, things are going to break down. Badly. Becoming a pay-to-win system is an absolute cancer on a game, and that's what getting a direct deal on "uncapped karma for money" will always become.
Mission, Method, Morals...all negotiable.

Plot
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Re: Paying Game fee for bonuses while NPCing/Not Attending

Post by Plot » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:30 pm

Unblocking topic for feedback on outcome.

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Jay Belarpin
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Paying Game fee for bonuses while NPCing/Not Attending

Post by Jay Belarpin » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:04 am

N8 wrote:-------

I came back to this. Here's where I am on it:
I'm a fan of pay to catch up/keep up and an adamant adversary of pay to win. Oh and, this discussion and making a decision on it has certainly made me examine other aspects of the game but more of that later.

When a player NPCs they're earning 10 Karma and 15 rads per game day. If they also paid game fee for a PC under 100 Karma they would earn 19karma/game day, 38/event. With 2 such events a starting character would enter the field at 116 karma. So, this seems reasonable.

Likewise if a given player who is PCing wanted their alternate character to earn Karma for an event, so long as their alt were under 100 Karma, yeah sure. As it was pointed out both last year and echoed this year, 100 Karma is sort of the magic number for when most builds come into their own.

What about for characters that have 101 or more karma? Uh, well, the only concession that I came up with was letting players spend $5 for a single extra Karma per game day per character of theirs but I'm not sold on it. If we introduced it, it would be from the date we introduce it -if we do. This would mean a 2day event would only allow you to spend $20 for 2 extra Karma, but lets discuss it.

I'm not sold on added logistics actions either. As Karma benefits everyone equally but logistics actions do not and folks using them are also not spending any resources through game play. That said, what about playing more than one character per event? I'm not really sure, and it's a question I think the playership should have input on.



All of that said, I'll be creating a discussion regarding the $5 single extra Karma for characters. It will remain open for feedback until March 20th at 23:59pm. It will not be implemented until the April game -if players are on board- at the earliest.

Additionally, progressive Rad Gain will be based on the Player and not character karma gains. This was fully a mistake on my part. Beginning at the March 2017 game, Player Characters will earn 5 rads per game day +1 rad per 10 game days. NPCs will Earn twice their base rads per game day.

Also, the Karma scale is going to be adjusted as follows. 100 Karma and under earns 10 Karma per game day
101-180 Karma Earns 8 Karma per game day
181-260 Karma Earns 5 Karma per game day
261-300 Karma Earns 3 Karma per game day
301-350 Karma Earns 2 Karma per game day
351-400 Karma Earns 0.5 Karma per game day
400 is the max limit for a player character. You may continue to play them, they however no longer earn Karma. Retire them for a free Tier 2 or Tier 3 Character at no rad cost to you.

So, since Rads belong to the Player and not the character and the desire is to keep brand new players from rolling out an OP character without knowing the rules. I present to you:

Keep Up, Rad Unlockable 50 rads.
The way this works is that any player with 50 or more rads may pay half game fee per game day for each character at or below 100 Karma to earn Karma (but not rads nor logistics actions) for said character.

The first thing I want to bring up is that you still haven't addressed the "I can't make it but I'll send you $ if you give me karma (and hopefully everything else) as though I PCed". This was a major point of the topic.

The sub 100 NPC boost is fine by me (other than some mathyness) though why do you say 19 per game day? It's 10 to PC and 10 to NPC so shouldn't it be 20?

No issues with alt boosting either.

The scaling karma growth schedule isn't too bad, you want to shift all bounds down by 1 (so 0-99, 100-179, etc.) because you end up screwing humans over on their racial otherwise*. For the record, somebody who only PCed and never got any bonus karma would have to PC 120 game days (60 normal events) to reach cap, which is a fair number.

*Humans would start at 42 and thus if the first step down is 101 they get 1 less day at 10 karma earned compared to everybody else. Also, humans should have a cap of 2 higher for overall karma.

I personally think that 400 is too low, if only because of the free spirit immunity abilities costing 350 total (250 with a 100 pre-req). Of course, we could lower the cost to 250 overall and then I'd shut up about it. 500 would be a happier cap if we don't.


Player rad growth should NEVER be better on the basis that you've been playing longer. Flat out NO! Getting more rads solely on the basis of having been here longer is bullshit. Just keep rads for game attendance flat (with the boost for NPCing) and reward being a GOOD long time player. Helping the game, helping new players, donating time/props. You know, what we already do.
As all of this happened, Bill poured a drink.

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jazzman831
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Re: Paying Game fee for bonuses while NPCing/Not Attending

Post by jazzman831 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:02 pm

Jay Belarpin wrote:I came back to this. Here's where I am on it:
I'm a fan of pay to catch up/keep up and an adamant adversary of pay to win.
"Pay to catch up" is something, in general, I can get behind. But when everybody is inherently at different levels, there's a very fine line between "catch up" and "get ahead". As long as we tie any benefit to the actual number of games played, you can never "get ahead" (though you may pass other players who choose to not take advantage).
When a player NPCs they're earning 10 Karma and 15 rads per game day. If they also paid game fee for a PC under 100 Karma they would earn 19karma/game day, 38/event. With 2 such events a starting character would enter the field at 116 karma. So, this seems reasonable.

Likewise if a given player who is PCing wanted their alternate character to earn Karma for an event, so long as their alt were under 100 Karma, yeah sure. As it was pointed out both last year and echoed this year, 100 Karma is sort of the magic number for when most builds come into their own.
For Jebediah, the magic number seemed to be between 125 and 150, (really, any Chi Mastery build adds 30 karma to the min-before-click count) but I agree with the principal. One of the reasons I haven't brought out an alternate character even though I have a couple really fun ideas is that none of my other ideas would be as fun to play as my main character for at least the first 2-3 games. But I just rebuilt them starting at 100 karma, and suddenly they look like they'd be a lot of fun out the gate.

So, I like the modification presented here for characters with <100 karma (though there might need to be something done about what happens when a character is really close to 100... it's no fair to tell my 99 karma character he can get 19 (or 20) extra, but my 101 karma character can't get any).

Question: does NPC karma have to be applied to a single character? In other words, if I NPC and earn my 10, can I apply 5 of it to two different characters? Likewise, if I do the above suggestion and pay the game fee, could I apply 10 to one and 9 to one? If so, that might make me more likely to pay-to-NPC, so that I could grow two characters at once.
What about for characters that have 101 or more karma? Uh, well, the only concession that I came up with was letting players spend $5 for a single extra Karma per game day per character of theirs but I'm not sold on it. If we introduced it, it would be from the date we introduce it -if we do. This would mean a 2day event would only allow you to spend $20 for 2 extra Karma, but lets discuss it.
I'm not sure I quite understand the math, but I think it's a wording issue. Either way, $5/1 or $10/1 (capped at 2/game most games) seems like an awful deal to me -- which is to say, I won't take it, but I have absolutely no problem with someone else wanting to take that deal.
That said, what about playing more than one character per event? I'm not really sure, and it's a question I think the playership should have input on.
Perhaps this should be a separate topic, but generally I think I'd be against players playing multiple characters in a game. The player then has to swap back and forth between two (or more) sets of rules that govern their characters, and the rest of the players have to swap back and forth remembering what they said to which character, etc. For a 2-day game, it's not worth it. That being said, I think it should be allowed with permission from the GM under special circumstances (RP reasons, mostly).
Additionally, progressive Rad Gain will be based on the Player and not character karma gains. This was fully a mistake on my part. Beginning at the March 2017 game, Player Characters will earn 5 rads per game day +1 rad per 10 game days. NPCs will Earn twice their base rads per game day.
This doesn't seem that bad to me (though it does seem a lot lower than the rads we get currently). +1/10 doesn't seem like so much of a differential that new players will be left behind, especially considering we play ~10 game days per year (averaging the time since I started through the end of the planned games this year). So if someone plays for 2 years they get 14 karma for a game, and someone who just started but brings a donation might get get easily that much, if not more. Heck, we got 20 rads this year for Christmas.

Yes, we definitely want to encourage new players; without them the game will eventually die. But I don't think it's a bad idea to give a nod to the people who keep the game going every single game and keep it on its feet in between the new players. That being said, making the bonus per game day adds a ton more paperwork for very little difference. Maybe it's stored somewhere else, but my current sheet says I've played 5 games (I've played/NPCd 8) and doesn't list how many game days I've played. I wouldn't want the people who've been playing 2-3 times longer than me get gypped because a different GM a buncha years ago didn't keep careful enough notes.
Also, the Karma scale is going to be adjusted as follows. 100 Karma and under earns 10 Karma per game day
101-220 Karma Earns 8 Karma per game day
221-310 Karma Earns 6 Karma per game day
311-390 Karma Earns 4 Karma per game day
391-450 Karma Earns 2 Karma per game day
451-500 Karma Earns 1 Karma per game day
501+ Does not earn Karma but may spend NPC Karma
Generally speaking, more karma per game, but you eventually hit a limit. Obviously, yes please for more karma (especially because I move back down a bracket)! Still being several years away from hitting the 501+ limit, I don't have an opinion either way. At that point once you've spent 25 games going from 450 to 50, I don't think you're really going to notice that karma gain is even *slower*. I do like that you can still spend NPC karma on your character. If someone's played a character THAT long and still likes playing, what the heck, I'd say let 'em!
Keep Up, Rad Unlockable 50 rads.The way this works is that any player with 50 or more rads may pay half game fee per game day for each character at or below 100 Karma to earn Karma (but not rads nor logistics actions) for said character.
This is not much different than the play-to-NPC option, though not as powerful. I don't immediately see anything wrong with it, but it makes me wonder if we shouldn't put a minimum rad on the pay-to-NPC option as well.
Missing a game does suck, and I'm open to suggestions regarding characters keeping up when players cannot.
For obvious starters, it seems to me that if you allow either scheme listed above to be available to anyone regardless of whether they actually attend, it wouldn't be any more gamebreaking than if they *were* able to attend. (I.e. you could pay a full game fee to get full karma or half game fee to get half karma). We'd have to figure out a way to deal with money in between since we tend to run on a cash system.

If there's no option for a playing or NPC-ing player to earn extra karma beyond 100, then there definitely shouldn't be a way for a non-playing player to earn extra karma either. Likewise, any solution we come up with (if any) that applies to 100+ karma could probably apply whether or not the player is physically there.
-Jebediah the Proud

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jazzman831
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Re: Paying Game fee for bonuses while NPCing/Not Attending

Post by jazzman831 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:29 pm

Well after spending 3 hours writing the post, I thought about it for 10 minutes and realized a fundamental flaw. Tying "extra" karma to the number of games doesn't allow you to get ahead, but it keeps other people from being able to catch up (I'm sure you guys figured this out already but I'm slow on the uptake).

It seems to be truly fair, the catch-up options should only be enabled if you miss a game. Say, you can choose either option (for which you qualify) once for each game you've missed since you started playing, but you can't use more than one at a time. This way, you can never get further ahead than another character that started at the same time you did. You don't gain any benefit without attending, but you can choose to not be penalized by it (or not penalized as heavily).

It's a ton of paperwork, of course, and it's not super great for current players (without N8 going back and figuring out how many missed games everyone has). And if we are only talking about <100 karma, or only talking about alternates, then it's a ton of effort for not a lot of reward..
-Jebediah the Proud

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Ander
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Re: Paying Game fee for bonuses while NPCing/Not Attending

Post by Ander » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Jay Belarpin wrote: I personally think that 400 is too low, if only because of the free spirit immunity abilities costing 350 total (250 with a 100 pre-req). Of course, we could lower the cost to 250 overall and then I'd shut up about it. 500 would be a happier cap if we don't.
Yeah, this was pretty much my immediate reaction to that part.

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